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    Stations of the Cross

    Comment
    Only few a stations of the cross have the same wording, most of them are worded differently by different sources. Which are the standard ones? Are specific wordings associated with specific groups?

    2nd station: a) Jesus takes the cross on his shoulders / b) Jesus accepts the cross
    3rd/7th/9th station: a) Jesus falls the first/second/third time / b) Jesus falls the first/second/third time under the cross
    5th station: a) Simon of Cyrene helps Jesus to carry the cross / b) Simon of Cyrene carries the cross
    6th station: a) Veronica offers Jesus a handkerchief / b) Veronica wipes the face of Jesus
    13th station: a) Jesus is taken down from the cross / b) Jesus' body is removed from the cross
    AuthorIlldiko (763882) 08 Apr 12, 21:36
    Comment
    Which are the standard ones? Are specific wordings associated with specific groups?

    Welches sind jeweils die Quellen dieser verschiedenen Versionen ? Das dürfte schon mal einen Teil beantworten ...
    #1Author no me bré (700807) 08 Apr 12, 22:55
    Comment
    Ich betreibe hier keine Quellenstudien, sondern frage nach dem Sprachempfinden und den Assoziazionen der muttersprachlichen LEO-Nutzer.
    #2AuthorIlldiko (763882) 08 Apr 12, 23:21
    Comment
    Ich betreibe hier keine Quellenstudien, - Sollen wir dann Deine Quellen nochmal extra raussuchen ?
    #3Author no me bré (700807) 08 Apr 12, 23:24
    Comment
    Ich fürchte, no m e bré, du hast meine englisch formulierte Anfrage nicht verstanden. Außerdem gehörst zu nicht zur angesprochenen Zielgruppe und könntest daher ohnehin inhaltlich nichts beitragen.
    #4AuthorIlldiko (763882) 09 Apr 12, 19:59
    Comment
    I'm not Catholic, so I wouldn't exactly call anything about the whole tradition 'standard,' as it seems to be based partly only on legend. (Veronica? She would have been in the fifth gospel, perhaps?)

    But since no one else has answered, I would say I doubt there is a single fixed wording, unless it's in a rubric in a liturgy for reenacting them or something. All those seem to be just explanations that could be phrased differently if you wanted to; the two choices you give probably aren't the only options.

    Just from the point of view of idiomatic English, all the (b) choices except Station 5 look somewhat more dubious to me. The one with 'under the cross' is particularly odd; you can fall under a bus, or drop your pencil under the table, but 'fall under the cross' doesn't work for me because it sounds mistakenly like an adverbial of direction (wohin as opposed to wo).

    Not sure if any of that is what you were asking.
    #5Author hm -- us (236141) 09 Apr 12, 22:03
    Comment
    @Illdiko: Ich glaube schon, dass no me bré Deine englisch formulierte Anfrage verstanden hat. Fraglich ist eher, ob Du no me brés deutsch formulierten Nachfragen verstanden hast.
    #6Author Dragon (238202) 09 Apr 12, 22:46
    Comment
    @hm--us: That was precisely what I was asking.

    Would "Jesus carries the cross" sound less dubious to you than "Jesus accepts the cross"?
    #7AuthorIlldiko (763882) 10 Apr 12, 02:19
    Comment
    Mal im Ernst, Illdiko:
    Diese Frage hat weniger etwas mit dem Sprachempfinden von Muttersprachlern zu tun, sondern mehr mit religiösen Traditionen.

    Der Kreuzweg (engl: stations of the cross) ist ein fester Gebetszyklus mit festen Bezeichnungen. Da geht es nicht darum, welche "Beschreibung" ein jemand dubios findet.
    In jeder kirchlichen Gruppe wird es feste Bezeichungen geben. In alten Kirchen vermutlich auch alte Formulierungen, die seit Generationen so verwendet werden. Das hat dann auch wenig mit dem Gefühl heutiger Muttersprachler zu tun.
    (Nichts gegen dich, hm--us, aber hier geht es eben genau um "a rubric in a liturgy for reenacting them")

    Und jede kirchliche Gruppierung wird auch ihre festen Gebetsbücher haben, in denen die Stationen (und die zugehörigen Gebete) stehen.
    Da mag es häufigere Versionen geben, die viele Gruppe benutzen und die als Standard gelten.
    Aber wer diesen Gebetszyklus nicht auf Englisch kennt, der wird dir diese Frage nicht beantworten können, auch wenn es ein Muttersprachler ist.
    Wohl kann aber ein Hinweis auf deine Quelle helfen, anhand der Quelle größere oder kleinere Gruppen zu identifizieren und vielleicht eine Standardquelle zu identifizieren.

    Das würde dann genau deine Fragen beantworten:
    Which are the standard ones? Are specific wordings associated with specific groups?

    Ich habe keine Ahnung vom englischen Kreuzweg, aber zumindest laut Wikipedia scheint es zwei übliche Varianten zu geben: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stations_of_the_...
    #8Author kubik (586667) 10 Apr 12, 06:03
    Comment
    @kubik:
    Nothing personal here either, but isn't 'fest' a relative term? As you yourself suggest, liturgy can be different in different places and times. Even though Catholic liturgies are less flexible than those in many other churches, no liturgy is absolute or immutable. Which in my view is a good thing, since liturgy is (part of) the ongoing, evolving work of the church, that is, the people.

    Even if this liturgy derives from a relatively early period, there could have been somewhat different Latin texts for different medieval rites. Because the ritual involves a lot of pageantry, somewhat different traditions could have developed in different places, like Latin America (where it's evidently a big thing) vs. Africa or Europe, with different indigenous influences. Rubrics could vary more than the actual words spoken. And there could also be texts on the internet that are indeed just explanations, as opposed to direct quotations from any liturgy.

    In more recent times there may have been different English translations in different decades, or into different varieties of English, or by more or less competent translators and liturgists. That, in particular, can indeed be judged by native speakers. (Didn't some of the Catholic church's earlier ventures into English get rather mixed reviews?)

    I'm not at home with my reference works on liturgy, and as I said, I'm not Catholic. But I do have some experience and interest, and I was willing to at least try to help, when the question seemed to be going otherwise unanswered. I'm just tired of LEO threads that consist of nothing but fussing at other posters. Maybe we need a little more Easter spirit instead.

    @Illdiko:
    That's idiomatic enough, but isn't the meaning different? You carry something after you have already picked it up; but the point seems to be that Station 2 is where he lifts it, raises it, whatever. 'Accepts' is just barely explicable in a figurative (heavily interpretative, moralistic) sense, but it still really doesn't sound good here; you accept a gift, a cup of tea, or a suggestion, not a massive execution device. 'Takes on his shoulders' is also not that good; it's plodding and spells out too much. (And it sounds somehow more as if it's crosswise, like a yoke, not dragging it as it's usually portrayed.)

    A more traditional verb in English is 'take up (the/one's cross),' but that might have other associations (such as gospel hymns) that would seem out of place here.

    Perhaps other English speakers will comment, or you will reconsider about identifying your sources, which I agree might have been helpful.

    #9Author hm -- us (236141) 10 Apr 12, 08:16
    Comment
    @hm-us: I have just browsed English-speaking domains on the Internet and picked all the variations I came across without recording the sources, which I'm not interested in, as I am not writing a theological paper. I'm not interested in church traditions, either, just in the linguistic aspects.

    When I asked for possible associations with specific groups I started from the assupmtion that there are just some subtle differences in style resulting from conventions and different traditions. From what you say, however, it would appear that there are big semantic and idiomatic differences.

    Jesus takes up the/his cross yields results in relevant domains, but only a few:
    https://www.google.de/search?hl=de&lr=&tbs=qd...
    https://www.google.de/search?hl=de&lr=&tbs=qd...

    #10AuthorIlldiko (763882) 10 Apr 12, 23:51
    Comment
    Okay, thank you for following up. I don't think I can add anything further, but perhaps others would like to comment just on the English, if that's what you want.

    One person who might really have a comment that would be helpful to you would be Sharper, who is Catholic and has an interest in liturgy; perhaps you could PM him, though he evidently doesn't read here every day or even every week.
    #11Author hm -- us (236141) 11 Apr 12, 00:29
     
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