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    Stellung von 'both' im Satz

    Topic

    Stellung von 'both' im Satz

    Comment

    ... to be working for the medical establishment and the government both.


    Ich hätte das 'both' vor 'for' gesetzt. Ist das eine für AE typische Satzstellung oder einfach eine Alternative?

    Author penguin (236245) 06 Feb 19, 12:47
    Comment

    I find the position of "both" in the example quite clumsy. I'd put it after "for."


    If it were to be place before "for," I'd say that you would need the repeat "for" in the second part of the sentence.

    #1Author hbberlin (420040) 06 Feb 19, 12:50
    Comment

    ich kenne das nachgestellte "both" eher von "you and me both", also in etwa "wem sagst du das". Wird das sonst überhaupt verwendet?

    #2AuthorSpinatwachtel (341764) 06 Feb 19, 13:18
    Comment

    I don't know if it's "eine für AE typische Satzstellung" or not, but it's not uncommon, imo. I've come across it fairly frequently and don't think it's "clumsy" at all. In fact, in some contexts can be quite an elegant (somewhat poetic?) solution, imo. It gives the sentence a different "rhythm" at any rate. Again: imo.

    #3Author dude (253248) 06 Feb 19, 13:21
    Comment

    für AE typisch, weil die Autorin Amerikanerin ist - daher meine ursprüngliche Frage. Aber danke für die Rückmeldungen.

    #4Author penguin (236245) 06 Feb 19, 14:31
    Comment

    To my mind, it stresses the "both" in a way that it wouldn't otherwise be stressed. As a result, and not knowing the context, I'd probably read this as suggesting that it's rare or otherwise noteworthy to be working for both at the same time. In any case, like dude in #3 I don't think it's clumsy, but I would say it's marked and therefore draws attention to itself.

    #5Author Thirith (1037221) 06 Feb 19, 16:13
    Comment

    I'm not so sure about the stress factor. To me, "both" tends to stress a certain point regardless of whether it's in front or the back. Unfortunately, penguin only gave us a sentence fragment, and I wonder what the difference would be in that particular sentence if "both" were omitted entirely. IOW, what would the sentence express if it were "...to be working for the medical establishment and the government."

    #6Author dude (253248) 06 Feb 19, 17:10
    Comment

    You can rest assured that the rest of the sentence doesn't matter. What does, however, matter is that the person in question works both for the medical establishment and the government, so yes, maybe the stress of placing 'both' at the end was intended by the author.


    By the way, the book in question is Educated by Tara Westover.

    And here's the complete sentence typed out:

    Mary taught nursing at the school, which Dad said was just about as brainwashed as a person could get, to be working for the Medical Establishment and the Government both.


    #7Author penguin (236245) 06 Feb 19, 17:17
    Comment

    I will rest assured then, thank you. But I was merely considering the potential differences between

    a) ... to be working for the medical establishment and the government.

    b) ... to be working for both the medical establishment and the government.

    and

    c) ... to be working for the medical establishment and the government both.


    Imo, both b) and c) express more or less the same in terms of stressing a point.



    #8Author dude (253248) 06 Feb 19, 17:23
    Comment

    Be that as it may, I think the 'both' is necessary in the sentence, irrespective of its syntactical position.

    #9Author penguin (236245) 06 Feb 19, 17:25
    Comment

    dude, I agree that including "both" stresses the point in either case, though to my ear it is more stressed in the less usual position, at least in writing, because it draws more attention to itself. I'm talking about differences in nuance only, though.

    #10Author Thirith (1037221) 06 Feb 19, 17:39
    Comment
    I agree with Thirith that it simply adds emphasis. It doesn't strike me as clumsy or AE, just different within the range of normal variation.
    #11Author hm -- us (236141) 06 Feb 19, 21:05
    Comment

    I find putting 'both' at the end like this is very un-BE.

    #12Author escoville (237761) 07 Feb 19, 17:10
    Comment

    Found another example in a book by Colum McCann: "He taught her English and Arabic both."

    #13Author penguin (236245) 28 Mar 21, 20:17
    Comment

    And Richard Ford also does it: "The place was all anti-mystery types right to the core - men and women both."

    #14Author penguin (236245) 02 Jun 21, 22:45
    Comment
    I miss dude and escoville. Both.



    So, McCann is Irish but lives in New York, and Ford is American?

    What about 'You and me both'? Oh, I see Spinatwachtel already mentioned it far above.

    ________________


    Macmillan:
    you and me both – used for telling someone that you are in the same situation, have the same problem etc as them
    ‘I’m completely confused.’ ‘You and me both.’
    https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionar...

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/12/08...
    https://www.salon.com/2020/09/29/hillary-clin...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_and_Me_Both
    https://genius.com/Arthur-russell-you-and-me-...
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/48728262-...
    https://variety.com/2016/film/news/contance-w...
    #15Author hm -- us (236141)  02 Jun 21, 23:18
    Comment

    If it were to be placed before "for," I'd say that you would need the repeat "for" in the second part of the sentence. (#1)

     

    I often come up with this issue in proofreading, e.g. This applies both to A and B. I then change it to either This applies both to A and to B or This applies to both A and B. As I see it, this is more a matter of logic than of grammar as such.

     

     

    … to be working for the medical establishment and the government both. (#0)

     

    I’ve never encountered this construction.

    #16Author Stravinsky (637051) 03 Jun 21, 11:33
     
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