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  • Übersicht

    Land und Leute

    Namensführung: Ich brauche eure Hilfe! Who can help an American marrying a German?

    Betrifft

    Namensführung: Ich brauche eure Hilfe! Who can help an American marrying a German?

    Kommentar
    I was at the Standesamt this afternoon to sign us up to get married in April. Everything went fine, except for the declaration of my name after we marry. We had decided that we want to each follow the laws of our home countries. For my fiance, this makes no difference, he has a Vorname and a Nachname and nothing changes...

    The American law is important for me, because I want to keep my current last name as a middle name. I had a printout from the Consulate explaining American practice in German. However, the civil servant at the Standesamt was not certain what to do with this, and could not understand exactly what is meant by "Mittelname". When I said I already have a middle name, and would just take my maiden name as a second middle name, she said no, I had 2 Vornamen. She went to talk to her supervisor and when she came back, she said that if I keep my maiden name as a middle name, it will look like this on all records:

    Janice Lynn Hollifield (Mittelnamen) Schmidt

    (Name has been changed to protect the innocent. ;))

    I said yes, that is what I want, Janice Lynn Hollifield Schmidt, wobei man einfach Frau Schmidt ist, und nicht Frau Hollifield-Schmidt. She said, no, that my name on all documents would be Janice Lynn Hollifield (Mittelnamen) Schmidt. They have to add the parentheses everytime, because they do not know what to do with the Hollifield otherwise!

    I plan to call the consulate and ask if they can clarify their explanation, but she said it would be best if I could provide an official statement from my state, since they are the ones that set such laws. I have not found an official statement, though I did find this:
    http://www.californiachronicle.com/articles/v...

    Which includes this description:

    Have it All - Add his name to the end of yours – essentially creating two middle names for yourself. You don’t always have to go by all four, and you will both have the same last name without the confusing hyphen.

    But this uses the same terminology of "middle" name, with which the German system seems unable to cope.

    Have any of you had similar problems, or can you give me tips on how to solve the problem? I certainly do not want to be named So and so (Middle Name) Schmidt... I also do not want a hyphenated name, z.T. for the reason that I mentioned in the other topic that my name includes the letter "u" which I have trouble distinguishing from "ü" so that I look forward to not having this problem anymore after changing my name.
    Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 09 Nov. 06, 17:44
    Kommentar
    Ähm, ich komme auch gerade nicht ganz mit...
    Wer heiratet, kann (abgesehen von anderen Möglichkeiten) seinen Nachnamen behalten und den Nachnamen des Partners dazunehmen.
    Also kannst du den Nachnamen Hollifield Schmidt annehmen. Das heißt aber, dass dein Nachname IMMER Hollifield Schmidt ist und nicht nur eins von beiden!
    Wenn du nur Schmidt heißen willst, kannst du den Namen Hollifield gar nicht tragen. Das liegt daran, dass es eben keinen middle name gibt.
    Wenn du in Deutschland heiraten willst, musst du wohl deutschen Namensgesetzen folgen. (Nehme ich an.)
    #1Verfassertigger, verwirrt09 Nov. 06, 17:58
    Kommentar
    Nein, als Amerikanerin habe ich das Recht, dem amerikanischen Recht zu folgen, und dannach soll es möglich sein, quasi aus sentimentalischen (bzw. professionellen) Gründen, meinen Mädchenname noch als Teil meines Namen zu behalten, aber ohne Frau Hollifield Schmidt zu heißen. Ich will dann einfach Frau Schmidt sein, und höchstens noch als Janice Hollifield Schmidt veröffentlichen können, so dass man meine künftige Veröffentlichungen mit den bisherigen verbindet.

    Muss jetzt zur Uni...
    #2Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 09 Nov. 06, 18:03
    Kommentar
    Maybe you should marry in the U.S. after all....

    As we don't have this middle name business in Germany, I'm not sure whether they will be able to make an exception to the rule at the Standesamt.
    When you marry, you either both keep your "maiden names", so you would still be Jane Doe and he Max Mustermann, or you decide on one married name, making you Herr und Frau Doe or Herr und Frau Mustermann, or one of you keeps his/her name and the other adds his with a hyphen, so you're Jane Doe-Mustermann and Max Mustermann or Jane Doe and Max Mustermann-Doe. As far as I know, these are the only possibilities provided for by German laws.
    #3Verfasser Dragon (238202) 09 Nov. 06, 18:04
    Kommentar
    Eine Freundin von mir (Deutsche) die einen Amerikaner in Deutschland geheiratet hat, heißt offiziell "Andrea Hollifield", hat aber jahrzehntelang (in Amerika) ihren "Maiden name" einfach überall mit angegeben: "Andrea Schmidt Hollifield", oder kurz "Andrea S. Hollifield". Sie hatte nie Probleme damit. Im Pass steht allerdings nur "Andrea Hollifield".
    #4Verfasser Mattes (236368) 09 Nov. 06, 18:06
    Kommentar
    I take it you are American and marrying a German? Under German law there is no way around the hyphenated version, and you would have to make a declaration as to your joint name (Ehename), and then that person who effectively gives up their surname can still use their surname as a double-barrelled name- with hyphen. So you would be Mrs Hollifield-Schmidt.

    This is set out in section 1 paragraph 2 numeral 1 of the EGBGB (Einführungsgesetz zum Bürgerlichen Gesetzbuch) and section 1355 of the BGB.

    The phrasing would be this: "Wir bestimmen den Geburtsnamen des Ehemannes Schmidt zum Ehenamen.

    Erklärung des Ehegatten, dessen Name nicht Ehename geworden ist zur Voranstellung oder Anfügung eines früheren Namens zum Ehenamen:

    Ich, die Ehefrau, füge dem Ehenamen Schmidt meinen Geburtsnamen hinzu und führe künftig folgenden Familiennamen:

    Holliefield-Schmidt.


    Now that is the option you have under German law (you could also call yourself Schmidt-Hollifield if you preferred).



    However, there is a choice of law clause, so if one of you is an American citizen, then you could choose American law as applicable law. If, under American law it is possible to take your former surname as a middle name, then you should be able to do that.

    As far as the German Standesbeamte is concerned, you will need to tell him that it is going to be another Vorname- (there is no German equivalent for middle name, you just have one, two or more Vornamen, and a surname).
    #5Verfasser Richard (236495) 09 Nov. 06, 18:08
    Kommentar
    Habe jetzt auch gelesen, dass man in den USA eigentlich das Recht hat, das Mädchenname z.B. bei der Arbeit zu behalten, und in anderen Kreisen zu ändern. Aber ich verstehe nicht wieso sie es nicht einfach ohne Klammern schreiben können!
    #6Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 09 Nov. 06, 18:09
    Kommentar
    Wenn man unter Pseudonym veröffentlichen kann, geht sicher auch sowas, wie von mir gerade beschriebenes. Oder du machst es andersrum, lässt dich auf diese "(Mittelnamen)"-Sache ein, und ignorierst sie ab dann. Das wird nur bei _extrem_ offiziellen Sachen, wahrscheinlich nur bei Passangelegenheiten, eine Rolle spielen.
    #7Verfasser Mattes (236368) 09 Nov. 06, 18:09
    Kommentar
    And just because you're getting married in Germany does not mean it has to be governed by German law- the form "Erklärung über die nachträgliche Rechtswahll und Bestimmung der Namensführung in der Ehe" explicitly has a "Rechtswahl" which says:
    "Wir bestimmen für die Namensführung in der Ehe
    deutsches Recht
    x Recht (zum ankreuzen)

    (Es ist das deutsche oder das ausländische Heimatrecht eines Ehegatten zu wählen!).



    (Guess who's just gone through all of this...)
    #8Verfasser Richard (236495) 09 Nov. 06, 18:13
    Kommentar
    "ich verstehe nicht wieso sie es nicht einfach ohne Klammern schreiben können!"

    Wie Richard schon geschrieben hat:
    As far as the German Standesbeamte is concerned, you will need to tell him that it is going to be another Vorname- (there is no German equivalent for middle name, you just have one, two or more Vornamen, and a surname).

    Hier gibt es keine Mittelnamen. Punkt. Wenn es tatsächlich möglich ist, die Namensführung nach amerikanischem Recht zu beantragen, müssen die Standesbeamten in ihrem Formular einen weiteren Vornamen eintragen, weil Mittelnamen dort nicht vorgesehen sind. Wenn Du darauf beharrst, dass es kein Vorname, sondern ein Mittelname ist, müssen sie die Klammer einfügen, weil sonst nicht klar ist, was das für ein Namensbestandteil ist. Klingt seltsam, aber so ist es wohl. Nehme ich zumindest an.
    #9VerfasserDragon unplugged09 Nov. 06, 18:17
    Kommentar
    Just to give you another idea to chew on: One of the professors at my university retained her maiden name for academic engagements, e.g. in publications, presenting at conferences, on the university website. But for all other purposes (passport, everyday situations, presumably her paycheck), she took her husband's name. I can see how it could get confusing having two wholly different names, but that's an option. Or you could just take a page out of her (and Mattes') book and just include your maiden name where you like, if you don't mind that it won't be in your passport.
    #10VerfasserAbra (236397) 09 Nov. 06, 19:05
    Kommentar
    Siehe Wörterbuch: middle name

    regarding middle names...
    #11Verfasser Richard (236495) 09 Nov. 06, 19:16
    Kommentar
    http://www.usembassy.de/germany/img/assets/90...

    This is the official explanation from the Consulate that I had with me today at the Standesamt. In order to get the Standesamt to accept Yutzy as a Vorname, I have to get the consulate to revise the sheet or write me a letter detailing in my case what my name should be. In addition to the problematic use of the Begriff "Mittelname", I think there is a mistake in point 4, where I think the second sentence has to read: Der bisherige *Mittelname* kann weiter....

    In the US it is common for women to either replace their middle name with their maiden name or to add it as the last of their middle names (or Vornamen, je nach dem!).

    As to publishing, etc, I guess you are write that I can just keep using the name without having it be part of my official name. However, I asked an editor of an volume which will be published next fall, after my wedding, if it would be possible to go ahead and change my name on an article so that it is correct when the book actually comes out, but he replied that they would only change it on the copy after I was married and the name change was legal...


    Thanks for your suggestions and support. And after my insistence in the other thread that marrying in Germany is not all that difficult. :) Well, we did get to register, and as soon as the Oberlandsgericht gives them the go ahead and I fork over whatever fee they charge for their judgement, there is nothing more standing in the way...
    #12Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 09 Nov. 06, 22:55
    Kommentar
    I suggest that you try again with the Standesbeamte, armed with that info sheet and an English -> German dictionary. Show him that the English "middle name" is just the English term for what in Germany is called a Vorname, and explain slowly and clearly that this is what you wish to do.

    I don't think that there is a mistake in point 4 either- as I understand it, what it is saying is that if you add your maiden name as a middle name you are free to use it (and go by the name of Hollifield Schmidt) or not (just Schmidt), as you choose.
    #13Verfasser Richard (236495) 09 Nov. 06, 23:12
    Kommentar
    I'm not sure about #4, since confusion could arise about whether the "middle" name is to be replaced or extended...

    I'll try to speak to someone at the Consulate next week. Maybe they can just send a letter detailing the name as I want to have it. The Standesamt here is closed due to a move until at least Wednesday, and the woman who registered me today was predicting chaos for the remainder of the week. Since we're not getting married until April, I have a bit of time to plan my strategy.

    Thanks!
    #14Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 09 Nov. 06, 23:37
    Kommentar
    Just one other suggestion:

    German name law is one of the most anal and restrictive parts of the whole package. You get easier away with murder on a formality than being allowed to change a letter in your name.

    One way out of your misery might be a two-step approach:

    1. Follow German rules and instead of Stacey Barbara Smith you are now Stacey Babara Mueller.

    2. Ask at your local town office for the addition of "Smith" as your third first name with the argument that this would follow actual naming conventions in your country. Your name would thus be Stacey Barbara Smith Mueller.

    However, you should clarify before if your lastname stands any chance of being accepted as a first name.

    Another (safer) possiblity: Ignore whatever is in the German documents. Got your American papers changed according to American rules and than asked for a new version of your German papers due to the change of your name.

    I emphasize what others said before: There is no thing as a middle name in Germany. The only thing they will understand is the addition as a another first name. (Which would serve actually exactly the same purpose.)

    Good luck, and I'm soooo happy not to be in your place. ;)
    #15VerfasserHein -de- (236231) 10 Nov. 06, 05:13
    Kommentar
    From the "Boyfriend ..." thread: "Seriously, I'm in the process now, and it's a lot of paperwork, trip to consulate, etc, but I don't feel like anyone (yet) has really made it 'difficult'."

    Oh no?
    ;-}

    But seriously, I wish you good luck and I do admire your determination and gumption!
    #16Verfasser hermarphromoose (169674) 10 Nov. 06, 07:10
    Kommentar
    Oops, sorry, didn't read #12. So sorry to pound it in once again. ;-}
    I still wish you all the best and advise you to get married in the States after all. ;-}
    #17Verfasser hermarphromoose (169674) 10 Nov. 06, 07:14
    Kommentar
    If you "only" need your middle name for publishing and your academic career, why don't you use it as a "Künstlername"? That'd help you around any problems with German name law.
    #18VerfasserSabeth10 Nov. 06, 07:18
    Kommentar
    Und da kam er wieder hinterhältig aus dem Dreck.
    EY .. was hälst du davon, wenn das Standesamt es absolut nicht verstehen will mit deinem Middlename, dann heirate eben ohne.

    Dann aber gibts du trotzdem bei jedem Formular den Namen an, den du haben willst.
    Dann bist eine amtliche Janice Lynn Schmidt, aber jeder Mensch der deine deutsche Akte nicht gelesen hat, kennt dich nur als

    Janice Lynn Hollifield Schmidt

    Denke, diese minimalistische Lösung sollte schlimmstenfalls alle Probleme lösen.
    #19Verfasserlala10 Nov. 06, 07:47
    Kommentar
    Ist es nicht möglich zwei verschiedene Nachnamen zu führen ?
    Meine Frau heißt in Deutschland offiziell einfach nur "Agustina Schmidt", hat also meinen Nachnamen angenommen. In ihrer südamerikanischen Heimat jedoch heißt sie "Agustina Abrile Escobar de Schmidt" (Abrile Escobar war ihr ursprünglicher Nachname, gebildet aus den Nachnamen ihrer Mutter und ihres Vaters).
    Bei Behördengängen in Deutschland mußt Du nur drauf achten, den richtigen Ausweis vorzuzeigen ;-)
    #20VerfasserChefkoch10 Nov. 06, 07:50
    Kommentar
    Mindestens ist mir jetzt klar, dass es mir tatsächlich wichtig ist, meinen Mädchenname zu behalten. Aber auch wichtig, den Nachname meines Mannes zu tragen und unseren Kinder weiterzugeben. Da ich als Amerikanerin auch die Möglichkeit haben sollte, einen Doppelname ohne Bindestrich zu führen, wäre dies vielleicht eine andere Möglichkeit, und ich könnte einfach in den meisten Fällen den ersten Nachname weglassen. Aber ich hoffe noch, die werden es akzeptieren als zusätzlichen Vornamen wie ich es haben wollte. Ich weiß nicht, ob es mit einer Künstlername so einfach ist, wie ich geschrieben habe, wollte ein Herausgeber nur meinen amtlichen Namen akzeptieren.

    Wie ich geschrieben habe, kann ich erst nächste Woche was machen. Ich sage Bescheid, wie es ausgeht. Vielleicht hilft es dann jemandem irgendwann als archivierter Artikel.

    @hermarphromoose: na ja...vermutlich hat der Freund von janeausten nicht das Problem...die Männer haben diese Sachen etwas einfacher. ;)
    #21Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 10 Nov. 06, 09:13
    Kommentar
    Dear EY,
    11 years ago I (US) married my German husband in Germany. We also went through all this hick hack about the naming. I discussed the issue to death with the Standesbeamtin and thought everything was clear. I also wanted to keep my maiden name and use it as a "middle name". We did the standesamtliche Trauung the day before the church wedding, with guests from all over the world. During the civil ceremony I was presented with the papers for the name change - and was given a double last name with no hyphen. Following your example:
    Vornamen: Janice Lynn
    Nachnamen: Hollifield Schmidt
    I signed, not really realizing the consequences. On all of my official paperwork - including bank and health insurance cards - I have to use "Janice Hollifield Schmidt". In my case the last names are even longer (8+11 letters). I made a deal with the bank - the card says "Janice Hollifield Schmidt" but I sign "Janice H. Schmidt". You define the reference signature at the bank and by how you sign your card. I call myself "Frau Schmidt", but when I call a doctor's office they can't find me until I remember that they need to look under "Hollifield". Many computer tables don't know what to do with two last names, so I often get a hyphen shoved in anyway.

    I chose to change my name because I didn't to have a different name than my children. My maiden name is very unusual and would likely make problems for my children in Germany, so I didn't like the option of them using my name. My husband also refused to change his.

    I've come to accept the situation, but given another chance I might have kept my maiden name all by itself. I didn't know about this "(Mittelnamen)" option. Like I said, I had already discussed with the Standesbeamtin that I would use my maiden name like a middle name. But the paperwork came with the names as Nachnamen". So in any case, I would recommend you get a copy of the name-changing document before the wedding!
    #22VerfasserTeri10 Nov. 06, 09:55
    Kommentar
    Kein Mensch wir künftig den Namen, mit dem du unterschreibst mit deinem Pass vergleichen (außer vielleicht beim Eröffnen eines Bankkontos). Auf der Geburtsurkunde meiner Schwiegermutter hat der Beamte einen Tippfehler gemacht und ein überflüssiges "e" eingefügt, das jetzt seit 65 Jahren so in ihrem Pass steht. - Aber sie hat sich nie darum geschwert und immer und überall mit dem Namen unterschrieben, wie er damals hätte sein sollen. Kein Mensch kennt die "e"-Version. Heirate also, nimm einen Bindestrich-Doppelnamen an und lass in Zukunft den Bindestrich einfach weg. Jeder wird deinen Namen so akzeptieren, wie du ihn "veröffentlichst".
    #23VerfasserBirgila/DE10 Nov. 06, 09:58
    Kommentar
    Mein Mann und ich haben unseren Namen behalten, ich wollte nicht heißen wie er und er nicht wie ich, geheiratet haben wir trotzdem. Unser Sohn heißt wie mein Mann, beim Kinderarzt z.B. heiße ich dann halt auch wie die beiden, kaum einer kommt auf die Idee, dass die Kinder einen anderen Nachnamen als ihre Mütter haben.
    Ich finde diese Lösung gut, Doppelnamen finde ich nur begrenzt gut, bei uns kämen sehr viele Buchstaben zusammen, es wäre einfach unpraktisch.
    #24Verfasserxy10 Nov. 06, 10:18
    Kommentar
    @Anne - I haven't read the thread, so maybe someone has already answered your call for help. Had the same problem about 30 years ago - the German "Beamte" insisted that if I would have to have a "Bindestrich-Namme," which was NOT what I wanted. I finally gave in, dropped my maiden name. When I went to have my name changed on my passport, the American official stated: As an American citizen, it is your right to retain your maiden name, no matter WHAT the Germans say. Once it was in my passport, I never had any problems with German "officialdom."
    #25Verfasser Carly-AE (237428) 10 Nov. 06, 10:18
    Kommentar
    Carly's post (which I take was meant for me, I don't see a post from an Anne...) gives me an idea:

    I've read that you can have your name changed on the passport before the wedding. If I go to the Consulate and order a new passport, then maybe I can show that at the Standesamt to force them to accept the name as I want it.

    Does this sound like a solution?


    @xy: I would be more likely to retain my name if I could spell it, but I can't pronounce the second letter (u) properly in German; they always write ü. In addition, my name includes a y at the beginning and end, and this is also sometimes confusing. 80% of the time, Germans change the last y to an i (Which makes phonetic sense.) And it happens rather frequently, that they have to think first about what a y even is...and once in a while, they write the wrong letter (x or v)... So I really do want to hang onto the name for sentimental reasons, but look forward to not having (to try) to spell this name.

    Teri's post makes it clear to me that the double name solution...mit oder ohne Bindestrich...is not the way to go. (Thanks!)
    #26Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 10 Nov. 06, 10:35
    Kommentar
    Vielleicht sind ja doch zwei Nachnamen ohne Bindestrich möglich? Zumindest wundert mich, dass bestimmte Formulare oder Eingabefelder nur einen Namen erlauben sollen. Schließlich gibt es unzählige Leute mit Namen wie "von Laue" oder "van den Bergh" ohne Bindestrich zwischen den Teilen des Nachnamens. Was machen Menschen mit diesen Namen in solchen Fällen?

    Andere Beispiele: "Schulte im Walde". Wikipedia dazu: "Die Form Schulte ist oftmals auch in Doppelnamen zu finden, wobei das zweite Namenglied ursprünglich ein Hofname war, z.B. Schulze Dieckhoff, Schulte Renger, ..."

    Und es gibt die Versionen mit "... genannt ...", z. B. "Sirrenberg genannt Dahlmann". Wikipedia dazu: http://wiki.genealogy.net/wiki/Genannt
    #27VerfasserHenk L. (244857) 10 Nov. 06, 10:38
    Kommentar
    @EY - Sorry, my post was meant for you - haven't had enough caffine, yet :-)) There's really no need to force the Standesamt to accept the name as you want it. Once you register your marriage at the Consulate, have your passport changed to the name of your choice - the German Beamte accept it - I think they've questioned it maybe once or twice, but I just state that is my legal name. Never had a problem, it's on my credit card, bank forms, etc.
    #28Verfasser Carly-AE (237428) 10 Nov. 06, 10:43
    Kommentar
    Ein Doppelname ohne Bindestrich soll möglich sein. Allerdings habe ich auch danach gefragt, aber die Standesbeamtin hat das Blatt vom Konsulat so ausgelegt, dass beide Partner diesen Name führen müssen, weil es dort heißt, "Beide Ehepartner können sich bei der Heirat für den Doppelnamen entscheiden (mit oder ohne Bindestrich)..." Allerdings ist diese Auslegung schwierig, da wir auch das Recht haben, uns zu entscheiden, dass jeder dem Recht seines Heimatlandes folgt, und nach seinem deutschen Recht, darf er keinen Doppelnamen ohne Bindestrich führen...

    Aber Doppelname ist glaube ich keine gute Lösung, aus obgenannten Gründen von Teri. Ich will ja keinen doppelten Nachname führen, ich will einen doppelten Mittelname...uh ich meine, einen drefachen Vornamen. :)
    #29Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 10 Nov. 06, 10:47
    Kommentar
    Changing the name at the Consulate and then presenting the result to the Standesamt sounds like a wonderful solution! Wish I had had LEO to ask back then! :-)
    #30VerfasserTeri10 Nov. 06, 12:36
    Kommentar
    What about you choosing your maiden-name and your husband choosing a double-hyphened-name?

    No pun intended: If the integrity of your name is so important to you, discuss it with your husband. After all, either one can choose the hyphenated name.
    #31VerfasserSid2K610 Nov. 06, 13:02
    Kommentar
    @Sid2K6: If I understand EY correctly, she wants to retain her maiden name but not as her surname, as it is apparently difficult to spell out loud in German for her. The spelling problem would remain if she went for the hyphenated name.
    #32VerfasserDragon unplugged10 Nov. 06, 13:12
    Kommentar
    @Dragon - Most Americans have a first, middle and surname. When you (female) get married, your middle name is dropped, to be replaced by your maiden name (WITHOUT a hyphen). As EY has already said, this name change is very traditional, important and something you want to hold onto. The German officials gave me the same rigamarole way back when, but the Consulate sorted it all out for me, by the simple action of documenting my new name on my passport - complete with maiden name = middle name.
    #33Verfasser Carly-AE (237428) 10 Nov. 06, 13:33
    Kommentar
    @Carly: I know.
    #34Verfasser Dragon (238202) 10 Nov. 06, 13:40
    Kommentar
    @Dragon - Sorry, I must have misunderstood your post :-)
    #35Verfasser Carly-AE (237428) 10 Nov. 06, 14:03
    Kommentar
    In Germany Middle names and middle initials are nearly exclusively considered as additional first names. And it seems clear that this is the solution you want, since the american middle name does not exist in Germany.

    As I said above, changing your American papers first seems to me to be the best solution to get your maiden name as an additional first name. However: check this option with the responsable civil servant. With a maiden name such as "Hollifield" you might get away easily, but you don't want the Standesbeamte to balk, when he founds out that he is supposed to enter "Smith" as a first name.
    #36VerfasserHein -de- (236231) 10 Nov. 06, 21:58
    Kommentar
    EY: Not claiming to have read all of the above, has anyone thought of just taking the 'Hollifield' part as a woman's 'first' name, like 'Hollygolightly'? . . .

    Verona Pooth (fka Feldbusch), got away calling her son 'San Diego' because the Standesbeamte accepted 'San' as a males 'first' name (like he would have 'Sam' . . .)

    Hope your US-family name has a feminine touch about it (for German ears) . . .
    (Hillary Clinton had it the other way around: Her 'Hillary' derived from the surname of the conquerer of Mount Everest . . .)

    Be creative !
    #37VerfasserDaddy10 Nov. 06, 22:23
    Kommentar
    Yutzy
    #38VerfasserEY--not at home11 Nov. 06, 09:36
    Kommentar
    Yutzy

    Not exactly feminine...is it?!?!?!?
    #39VerfasserEY--not at home11 Nov. 06, 09:36
    Kommentar
    Being American, "Yutzy" could be considered as a slightly strange second given name. In a country where girls are named "Piper" or "Tyler", "Yutzy" isn't any worse ;-)

    Ella Yutzy Smith. Ella Y. Smith. Why not. You can use, "Ella Yutzy" e.g. in publications or "Ella Smith" in every day life.
    #40VerfasserBirgila/DE11 Nov. 06, 10:05
    Kommentar
    And, of course, Yutzy must be the US-way of spelling 'Jutzi, 'Jutzie' or 'Jutzy', musn't it?

    (check each variation out for google-hits) . . .

    . . . and find your roots!
    #41VerfasserDaddy11 Nov. 06, 22:38
    Kommentar
    . . . and here you can start:
    http://www.genealogytoday.com/surname/finder....

    but don't forget your main-aim . . .
    #42VerfasserDaddy11 Nov. 06, 22:47
    Kommentar
    Thanks for the tip. Jutzi is a Swiss German name from the Emmental region of Switzerland. My ancestors were Anabaptists who left the Emmental due to religious persecution and over a period of generations migrated into Waldeck (northern Hesse), where they lived as Amish "Meier" on several Meiereien. From there, they went to Pennsylvania, where my ancestors over 4 generations literally moved just down the street and bought the next farm. My grandfather left due to a bad economy, and my father moved even farther away for aesthetic reasons.

    A few years ago, I met a Herr Jutzi in the Palatinate who has spent 20 years researching the genealogy of the Jutzis (bzw. Yutzy, Yutzey, Yutzi, and various other spellings in the US). I also spent a weekend in the Emmental looking at Swiss Anabaptist sites, and I was hosted by a family Jutzi.
    #43VerfasserEY-unplugged12 Nov. 06, 14:54
    Kommentar
    Hey,Ey! - I just noticed what you wrote before/above:
    "...but I can't pronounce the second letter (u) properly in German; they always write ü"

    Care for a quick fix? - Say: joott-tzy . . .
    Hope, it helps!
    #44VerfasserDaddy12 Nov. 06, 23:48
    Kommentar
    I married a German woman in 1983. At that time, spouses were not allowed to have different names according to German marriage law. So,in Germany, we married under Michigan law, and our (university town, hence, weltoeffener) officials gave us no hassle. On the other hand, we had intended to marry in my wife's home-town, but were DENIED permission since my mother's middle names included (2) that were last names (she had gotten her mother's maiden name as a middle name at birth and then her own maiden name became her second middle name at marriage. The officals in this (unnamed) provincial city denied that it was possible for some-one to have a name that appears to be / a last name as a middle name - offical records not-with-standing. Obviously, I couldn't get my mother to change her name just so I could marry, so we got married in the SPD university town instead.

    Re 44: How does tht help????
    #45Verfassername withheld13 Nov. 06, 06:20
    Kommentar
    Re: #45/#44: Let EY decide . . .

    And for all US-Americans: As this (retaining the M.I. upon marrying in Germany) is obviously a frequently (!) re-occuring problem and as one honestly can NOT expect all the Standesbeamten in each little town in Germany to know the international (!) rules (of all other Nations), possibly impairing his standard regulations, why then, doesn't anyone officially find out, lists the name(S) and paragraphs of the German (!) laws/regulations and has them ready at the consulates for handing them out to you newly-weds-to-be (in English, so YOU know what you are talking about AND in German, so the Standesbeamte will understand)? . . .

    That's what I would call a 'Consular Service' . . .
    #46VerfasserDaddy13 Nov. 06, 11:31
    Kommentar
    Daddy: 1) I just don't see how an ambiguously written non-word is going to help. Maybe you could explain it a little better.

    2) When I got married, I didn't know any other Americans in Germany. And neither I nor my German bride had reason to suspect that an official (in a Millionenstadt)would create problems because of my mother's name.
    #47Verfassername withheld13 Nov. 06, 11:37
    Kommentar
    1. It was meant for EY:
    "I can't pronounce the second letter (u) properly in German; they always write ü"

    So this 'yoott-tzy' bit was an attempt to help EY to say a 'u' instead of an 'ü' . . .

    2. Well, and did anyone of you ever report back to his consulate what the solution to it was ?
    (Anyway, also a 'Millionenstadt' is divided/broken-up into 'Verwaltungsbezirke' and 'Gemeinden' . . .)
    #48VerfasserDaddy13 Nov. 06, 11:49
    Kommentar
    As I wrote above, on their website, the consulate does provide a document in German (and even as an American, I can understand it :)), but the problem is that this explanation uses the term "Mittelname" for "middle name", and the Standesbeamten do not know what to make of that.

    I called the consulate this morning to ask for clarification or help, but was told I have to call the passport office, which supposedly can supply me with a letter.

    They are only available by phone from 2-4 pm, so perhaps this afternoon I can provide the endgültige Lösung for this whole mess. :)

    Hope springs eternal.
    #49Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 13 Nov. 06, 11:58
    Kommentar
    Regarding the pronunciation thing...

    The problem is mostly when I have to spell my name and pronounce the individual letters.

    My fiance tried to tell me that I should say "you" without the "y", but that has not yet solved the problem...

    #50Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 13 Nov. 06, 12:03
    Kommentar
    @ EY: For this case (spelling it out), try 'ooh' (and think of a surprise or 'boots') . . .

    And for 'Middle name': Why don't you make it a seperate thread under 'German missing' ?

    Chances are that a term is suggested, less ambigous to 'deutsche Standesbeamte' than 'Mittelname' . . .
    #51VerfasserDaddy13 Nov. 06, 12:39
    Kommentar
    re the u/ü problem: Say "you fool" - the vowel sound in "you" is more like "ü", the vowel sound in "fool" more like "u" (at least with a more or less BE pronunciation). It's not perfect, but it might help you at least to hear and produce two distinctly different sounds)
    #52Verfasser Dragon (238202) 13 Nov. 06, 13:05
    Kommentar
    @Daddy: I am not sure that the German officials will accept an unofficial explanation if "Mittelname" is the word in the official document from the American consulate.

    Having said that, I was pretty sure that "middle names" had been discussed before, and hey presto - look what I found in the Archive (more links in the thread). So no need for EY to start another thread.
    #53Verfasser Dragon (238202) 13 Nov. 06, 13:21
    Kommentar
    "middle name" is already in LEO as a phrase

    I know that "middle name" is probably better translated as "zusätzlicher Vorname", but the problem is the official explanation from the Consulate uses the wrong term...

    #54Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 13 Nov. 06, 13:57
    Kommentar
    @ Ey, tell them !!! . . .

    'u'-sound: Dragon, EY needs something which has no leading 'Mitlaut' (see #50) . . .

    What do the Red Indians say at the end of a stetement? - 'Ugh' ?
    #55VerfasserDaddy13 Nov. 06, 14:16
    Kommentar
    Just an idea of something that might work as a last resort:

    If there is an English version of the official explanation from the Consulate, perhaps you could get someone to undertake a certified translation of it (using "zusätzlicher Vorname" instead of "Mittelname")? Certified translations have stamps all over them and look rather official, so the Standesbeamte should be happy with it :-)
    #56Verfasser dulcinea (238640) 13 Nov. 06, 14:21
    Kommentar
    So I just talked to the people at the Consulate.

    I learned:
    1) There is apparently not a way to apply for a passport prior to marrying. (I know I have read otherwise. Does anyone have an idea about this? I read they will issue a new passport and postdate it to the date of the planned wedding, but that this was not a good idea because it complicates honeymoon travel arrangements if there are different names on different documents.)

    2) The office there which sends out letters for babies born on German soil who should get wacky American names so that the Standesamt will accept these names. They are going to send me a letter which will hopefully solve the problem.

    I have told as many people as possible (except for the operator) at the consulate about the problematic use of "Mittelnamen" on the information sheet. Maybe once I am able to resolve the problem, I will send a letter as well, since that might actually end up on someone's desk who can change it.

    Now I'm really confused about the u/ü thing because my boyfriend used "you" as the example for the ü sound, and here someone suggested it for the u...

    I was really glad on the phone just know that I could spell it in "American". :)

    Maybe the way I pronounce the name is also part of the problem. I tell people it rhymes with "footsie" and "tootsie" (and not with those things which my classmates always liked slutzy or klutzy). Is that what a German speaker would expect? I am not sure what to make of the suggestion to pronounce it jootsy, since the "oo" sound has multiple variations in English (book vs. moon).
    #57Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 13 Nov. 06, 14:37
    Kommentar
    EY: Germans will understand (Moto-)'Guzzi' . . .
    #58VerfasserDaddy13 Nov. 06, 14:54
    Kommentar
    Re: pronunciation

    It's your name, pronounce it as you like and don't pander to what people might or might not expect.

    As far as the pronunciation of the letter 'u' in German is concerned, I think the middle portion of 'boot, loot, moot' etc. works, but I find the closest is the 'u' sound in 'butcher'.


    Re: Name change

    Forget about the consulate and their badly translated info sheet. See if you can get a copy of the applicable American law (in Germany the rules are set out here: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__1355.html so try and get the American equivalent) then present that text, ideally in the form of a certified translation and say that you want to choose American law.

    Alternatively, if the embassy/consulate can be prevailed upon to be useful, you could ask them to sign an official letter with wording along these lines:

    "I, (official's name & job title) have today spoken to Mr Schmidt and Miss Hollifield, and they have told me that they wish to marry. I understand that they wish to choose American law with regard to their marital name, and that they wish to choose the names Mr XY Schmidt and Mrs Janice Lynn Hollifield Schmidt. While Schmidt shall be the joint marital name, I can confirm that under American law it is possible for a woman to take the husband's surname upon marriage and add her maiden name as a middle name to her existing name. Consequently Miss Janice (first name) Lynn (middle name) Hollifield (surname) would henceforth be known as Janice (first name) Lynn Hollifield (middle names) Schmidt (surname).

    Or a German translation to that effect (although being careful that it uses "Vorname" rather than "Mittelname").


    The other option would be for you to just go with your husband's surname, and individually change your name to include your maiden name as an additional middle name. In England a name change can be quite easily effected by way of a deed poll (http://www.deedpoll.org.uk/). So if I wanted to change my name from Richard to Thomas for example, I could do that quite simply. Similarly I could add another middle name.

    I suspect that there is a similar possibility of doing something like that in US law, although a quick google search has not produced much more than this: http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject...



    Having said that, if you choose that the Ehename shall be Schmidt, then that is all the German officials will care about. Under German law you can have a double name, but if you don't want that it seems quite straight forward that Schmidt will be the sole marital name.

    If you wish to add Yutzy as a middle name, then, at least as far as Germany is concerned, that has nothing to do with your getting married (at least not formally). Consequently, it would not be the German officials who are responsible for this part, but the Americans; and the Germans can't very well complain if an American citizen makes changes to her middle names.
    #59Verfasser Richard (236495) 13 Nov. 06, 16:40
    Kommentar
    So I just got the letter from the Consulate. I fear it won't help at all. I carefully explained the problem to the woman who wrote the letter when I called last week, including the fact that the German authorities have no concept of "Mittelname". But the letter says:

    "gemäss den U.S. Passbestimmungen (und Namensführung) kann eine Ehefrau bei der Eheschliessung ihren Mädchenname als Mittelnamen benutzen und den Familiennamen des Mannes als Nachname führen. Dadurch entsteht jedoch kein Doppel-Nachname. Wir hoffen, Ihnen mit diesen Informationen gedient zu haben."

    Ich habe dort angerufen zu sagen, dass ich nicht weiß, ob dieser Brief mir hilft, da es immer noch diesen zweifelhaften Begriff verwendet, aber die Frau beharrt darauf, dass ich erst diesen Brief nochmal zum Standesamt nehme. Vielleicht wenn ich ein Wörterbuch jetzt mitnehme? Aber in meinem Wörterbuch steht middle name = zweiter Vorname. So genau wie sie sind, werden sie dann vielleicht sagen, ich kann meinen Mädchenname nicht als "dritten Vornamen" behalten... Mindestens sagte die Frau am Konsulat, die Standesbeamtin kann sie direkt anrufen, falls es noch Fragen gibt...

    Vielleicht drucke ich diesen Artikel von LEO aus und nehme das mit. ;)

    Viele Grüße von EY (immer noch Mittelname) Schmidt

    #60Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 15 Nov. 06, 12:10
    Kommentar
    Weiter oben hatte ich es schon einmal geschrieben, schreibe es aber gerne nochmal:

    Benutze 2 Pässe !

    Im amerikanischen Paß benutzt Du wie gewünscht Mittelname und Nachname und in deutschen Schriftstücken halt nur den Nachnamen.
    Wie gesagt, meine Frau macht es so und gab bisher keine Probleme.

    Was Eure Flitterwochen angeht: Es ist durchaus üblich die Flitterwochen unter altem Namen anzutreten, d.h. vor allem die Flugtickets tragen den 'alten' Namen. Geht in den meisten Fällen gar nicht anders.
    #61VerfasserChefkoch15 Nov. 06, 12:24
    Kommentar
    Danke für deinen Vorschlag, aber ich verstehe es nicht ganz. Ich werde keinen deutschen Paß haben, weil ich dafür meinen amerikanischen Paß abgeben mußte. Das heißt, mein Reisepaß bleibt meinen offiziellen Ausweis, auch in Deutschland. Ist es nicht deswegen wichtig, dass die Namen übereinstimmen?
    #62Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 15 Nov. 06, 12:29
    Kommentar
    ...bleibt mein offizieller Ausweis...
    #63Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 15 Nov. 06, 12:30
    Kommentar
    How very frustrating, EY. I think Richard's suggestion is very good, but if you really can't get hold of the law from your state, do you think my suggestion in No. 56 might deserve a try? I'm not certified myself, unfortunately, but if you want I can put you in touch with someone who would be happy to help and wouldn't charge you an arm and a leg. You would need the statement from the Consulate in English, though (not just the German version).
    #64Verfasser dulcinea (238640) 15 Nov. 06, 12:34
    Kommentar
    I can try to find a law for the state of California, but as someone wrote above, these customs are based on common law, and I am not even sure if there is law. I could not find one, when I searched last week. I also could not find an English version of the Namensführung document, but perhaps I can try the website of American Consulates in English-speaking countries...
    #65Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 15 Nov. 06, 12:36
    Kommentar
    EY, I'm annoyed on your behalf that our consulate can't help you out more. You'd think they'd have more experience in these types of situations, or at least could respect your request to not use the sticky term "Mittelname" in their official letter. When we were looking to get married, the embassy in Berlin claimed to have no way to advise us, so I called the consulate in Frankfurt, who just gave us wrong advice, resulting in a lot of misguided time and effort. And it's so difficult to get someone on the line in the first place, since they have so warmheartedly embraced the German policy of limited Sprechstunden. I know no one's perfect, but sometimes it seems like they're not even trying. Rant over.
    #66VerfasserAbra (236397) 15 Nov. 06, 12:55
    Kommentar
    At least I now have the direct extension of the woman who wrote the letter, so with any luck, when I am at the Standesamt trying to convince the officials what my name should be, they can call. Otherwise the Sprechstunden at the Standesamt and the 2-4 p.m. availablity of the Passport division at the Consulate would almost entirely preclude a direct conversation while I was at the Standesamt.
    #67Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 15 Nov. 06, 13:00
    Kommentar
    Best of luck with that. If you really hit the wall, you can always try zipping up to Denmark to get staatlich married. :) Depending on the Kreis, it's a short waiting period, they accept English language documents, license recognized throughout the EU, and their naming laws are supposed to be pretty liberal (you can settle the whole matter by having your husband take your name... ;)
    #68VerfasserAbra (236397) 15 Nov. 06, 13:09
    Kommentar
    I don't think my husband-to-be's that liberal. ;) But at least he could spell my name! We could swap! :)
    #69Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 15 Nov. 06, 13:12
    Kommentar
    Now THERE'S a challenge for your local Standesamt!
    #70VerfasserAbra (236397) 15 Nov. 06, 13:14
    Kommentar
    And if I may take a (slightly theoretical) stab at your pronunciation issue:

    The simplest way to anatomically describe a vowel is by thinking of two tubes. Your tongue forms a sort of occlusion along the roof of your mouth, and there's what I'll call the "back tube," which is the chamber behind your tongue to the back of your mouth, and the "front tube," which is the chamber in front of your tongue up to your lips.

    For example, if you say the word "bee" and then the word "boo", maybe you can feel how for the first word, your tongue is near the front of your mouth, and in the second word, it's near the back of your mouth. That is, "bee" has a very long back tube and a short front tube, and "boo" has a short back tube and a long front tube (which is made even longer by sticking out your lips to round them.) The German ü has a long back tube because your tongue is in the front, and also a pretty long front tube because your lips are rounded.

    So if you want to make the clearest "boo" vowel sound, make your back tube as short as possible by putting tongue way far back, and make your front tube as long as possible by exaggerating your lip rounding. I hope you're doing this silently, otherwise your coworkers will be looking over their cubicle walls by now... ;-)

    The "yu" in your last name makes it harder, because your tongue is near the front for the "y" and then has to go all the way to the back for the "u" - I would guess that in your American pronunciation you don't move your tongue much after the "y", which is ok for American speakers who will hear the rounded lips and recognize the vowel as an "u". A German speaker who hears your "lazy u" will recognize that your tongue is in the front of your mouth and your lips are rounded, and will perceive an "ü".

    I don't know if this approach helps you or not - some people find it more confusing than helpful. I guess it will be mostly moot anyhow, once you get your new name straightened out!
    #71VerfasserAbra (236397) 15 Nov. 06, 13:43
    Kommentar
    @ Abra: . . . "simplest way" ? . . .

    @ Richard: "but I find the closest is the 'u' sound in 'butcher'"

    Only for Lancastrians, luv . . .
    #72VerfasserDaddy16 Nov. 06, 23:01
    Kommentar
    I did wonder about the butcher suggestion...

    I find Abra's strategy somewhat helpful, although I haven't had a chance to try it outside of my dorm room yet. :)
    #73Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 16 Nov. 06, 23:16
    Kommentar
    @Daddy, EY, Richard: In some German words (Hund, Kutsche, lustig etc.) the "u" sound is indeed like the "u" sound in "butcher", at least the way I pronounce all these words (don't know about AE). But if you are spelling out something and just want to say the letter "u" out loud, this doesn't work. In that case, it has to sound more like the "oo" in "fool", "cool" or "tool".
    Maybe it would work for you to use the "Anton, Berta, Cäsar etc" code for the letters (equivalent to "alpha bravo charlie" in English) when spelling out your name. People with complicated names often do that, and any name with two ys qualifiea as complicated imho.
    #74VerfasserDragon unplugged17 Nov. 06, 11:11
    Kommentar
    Dragon,are you from Lancashire (or married to a Lancashire lass) ? . . .

    puddle, butcher, bus, luv . . .
    #75VerfasserDaddy17 Nov. 06, 11:18
    Kommentar
    @Daddy: Neither nor, and the "u" sound in "puddle" and "bus" is quite different from that in "butcher".
    #76VerfasserDragon unplugged17 Nov. 06, 11:36
    Kommentar
    Daddy,

    It appears that you're making a widespread mistake in believing that the 'u' in butcher is pronounced like any other 'u' (as in 'puddle' or 'bus').

    It is not.


    EY- go with Dragon's suggestion- "U für Ulrich", etc.
    #77Verfasser Richard (236495) 17 Nov. 06, 12:40
    Kommentar
    @Daddy: Clarification: simplest *model*, not the shortest explanation. But I think you already knew what I meant. ;-)
    #78VerfasserAbra (236397) 17 Nov. 06, 13:23
    Kommentar
    Ey jo was geht grüße alle :-P hehehe
    #79VerfasserJO17 Nov. 06, 13:41
    Kommentar
    Thanks to Richard for his suggestion above about taking the dictionary to the Standesamt. I took the letter from the Consulate to the Standesamt this morning, but without the other suggestion, wouldn't have thought of lugging the unabridged dictionary along. The letter, as expected, didn't clarify much of anything, but the Standesbeamtin was seemingly swayed by the entry "Middle Name"="zweiter Vorname."

    The issue still isn't resolved, because the colleague with whom she wanted to speak before deciding anything is away, but at least I can leave for 2 weeks in California with the sense of having made headway.

    I find it sort of amusing that my official file at the Standesamt includes a page copied of the unabridged Harper Collins German-English Dictionary.
    #80Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 22 Nov. 06, 10:26
    Kommentar
    Excellent- dictionaries are great!
    #81Verfasser Richard (236495) 23 Nov. 06, 11:00
    Kommentar
    I came across this thread by chance when looking up something else in LEO. It made absolutely fascinating reading! Please update me, EY. I'm dying to know that latest installment in this German-American soap opera. You must be back from California by now, but I suppose the hectic pre-Christmas period slowed you down a bit. Do write again when you have more to report. Personally speaking, I'm hoping for a happy ending rather than a diplomatic incident.
    #82VerfasserA. Janssen23 Dez. 06, 21:14
    Kommentar
    So, I just saw the last message for the first time, because I've been away from LEO for the past few weeks, but we were at the Standesamt this morning and it seems the matter is settled.

    For some reason only partially clear to me, in order to have the solution that I wanted, my German fiance had to agree to use American practice, as well. I think this is because the American laws are based on your home state, and since the Germans consider my home at present to be here, where I have my Hauptwohnsitz, there is no state involved. (Even though CA has to believe that I am a resident there, because of the public university where I am enrolled, and I have a CA driver's license and bank account and pay taxes there...) Since I don't have an American residence, we have to give a common statement about which set of laws to follow, or some such. Since we could think of no reason that it would be disadvantgeous for my fiance to use the American law...he keeps the same simple name *Vorname und Nachname, none of these confusing Mittelnamen*...this seemed like the way to go. So in the not so distant (3 months, but who's counting?)future I will be a very happy EYG.
    #83Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 05 Jan. 07, 18:58
    Kommentar
    Now I just need to write a very *polite* letter to the US Consulate.
    #84Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 05 Jan. 07, 18:59
    Kommentar
    Well, EY, I am thrilled to hear that sanity prevailed. Have a lovely wedding, and best of luck in your new life together. Now that you've successfully taken on combined German and American bureaucracy, marriage itself is bound to be plain sailing!
    #85VerfasserA. Janssen05 Jan. 07, 23:04
    Kommentar
    Hooray,

    Now if that doesn't bond you for life, nothing will... ;)

    Have a lovely wedding!
    #86Verfasser Richard (236495) 10 Jan. 07, 21:45
    Kommentar
    This story has (leider) a sequel! Having thought I resolved the issue two years ago, I was angered when I received the birth certificate for my daughter, who was born 2 weeks ago. Under "Vorname" the certificate listed (to retain the example in my original posting) "Janice Lynn" and under "Name" it says "Hollifield (Mittelnamen) Schmidt"! So now I get to take a trip down to city hall two weeks after having a baby to try and correct this, so that I can file the paperwork for the health insurance company, Elterngeld, etc. I tried to call them, but of course I have to come in person. I hope that when I show them my American passport (which I didn't have before the wedding of course, that would have simplified things considerably), they will simply change "Hollifield" to a "Vorname". Otherwise, my poor daughter will be stuck trying to explain "(Mittelname)" everytime she has to turn in official paperwork...
    #87Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 04 Mär. 09, 08:59
    Kommentar
    Ja, die deutsche Bürokratie ist unberechenbar! Viel Glück!!
    #88VerfasserSadre (440156) 04 Mär. 09, 09:14
    Kommentar
    Congratulations on the birth of your baby girl! Sugar, and spice and all that's nice, that's what little girls are made of!
    Ey - when reading your older posts this morning, I had a misreader, and read "my ancestors were analphabets from Switzerland", got a good laugh on that one well I realized my mistake.
    Just a consolation - I have been living here in Germany, married for 17 years, 2 kids, and you will always be confronted with "problems2 at various "Ämter". The best one was, sent my kids (both have dual citizenship, of course) home alone to visit my relatives 2 years ago, and due to the uptight immigrations (and it's the law), they flew with their US passports. Well, when getting on the LH flight returning to Frankfurt, the check-in woman wanted to know where their "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" in the passports were, othewise they wouldn't be able to get on the plan, because they didn't have a return ticket to the states. My sister and my son were able to convince her that they were German and didn't need!! a permit, and could get on the plane. Moral to the story, fly with both US and German identification!
    #89VerfasserSally04 Mär. 09, 10:00
    Kommentar
    @Sally

    You are always supposed to ENTER a country with that country's passport, if you're a citizen- i.e. in your example, they should indeed have gone to AMERICA on their American passports, but to GERMANY on their German ones.

    Rather silly, I know ;)
    #90Verfasser Richard (236495) 04 Mär. 09, 10:20
    Kommentar
    Richard - in English we say: hindsight is 20/20. When you send 2 children (teenagers) alone anywhere, you are glad that they only have 1 form of ID that they can lose :)!
    #91VerfasserSally04 Mär. 09, 10:30
    Kommentar
    I never thought I would be defending immigration laws but here we go:
    It makes perfect sense that you must enter a country to which you have citizenship on a passport from that country, since other laws and visas apply to everyone else. Your kids, like mine, need 2 passports to go back and forth without collecting stamps and other sundry that could raise questions about illegal status if anyone had an attack of nittpickiness.
    #92Verfasser Selkie (236097) 04 Mär. 09, 10:31
    Kommentar
    I was at the Standesamt today and the best we could agree on was this:

    Vorname: Janice Lynn Hollifield (Vornamen und Mittelname)
    Geburtsname: Hollifield
    Familienname: Schmidt

    Na ja..at least now the paperwork basically agrees with my name as listed in the passport. If the American consulate would just post something on their website in which they clearly state that a "middle name" in American understanding is the equivalent of a "zweiter (oder weiterer) Vorname" this would be so much easier! Afterall, in the passport which the USA issues, there are no "middle names" either. But the civil servants were very nice and they got a kick out of explaining to me the intricacies of Pakastani, Icelandic, and Etriean (I have no idea how to spell that) naming customs, which are all far more complicated than American laws. ;)
    #93Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 05 Mär. 09, 17:52
    Kommentar
    Ah. If I remember correctly, in Iceland, you append your fathers first name, followed by "son" or "daughter" to your own first name in order to form your full name:

    father: Agust Svenson
    mother: Jane Doedottir
    child: Firstname Agustson or Firstname Agustdottir

    Very interesting approach!

    Congratulations for having a child! Way to go!
    #94VerfasserSid2K706 Mär. 09, 13:34
    Kommentar
    @Sid2K7: ein ziemlich logisches Herangehen eigentlich. In einer sehr kleinen Gesellschaft (Island kommt auf nur rund 300.000 Einwohner), in der man nie Nachnamen gehabt hat, reicht eine Identifikation über Vorname und Tochter/Sohn von XXX völlig aus. (Spaßig wird das dann erst beim nach Vornamen sortierten Telefonbuch *g*)
    Reste davon findet man ja in Deutschland auch - alle Namen auf -sen und -son, viele auch auf -s (Friedrichs, Peters etc.) sind Reste eben jener Form der Namensgebung. Mit dem Unterschied, daß sie hierzulande nicht mehr von Generation zu Generation wechseln.

    In Rußland gibt es den Otschestwo, den Vatersnamen. Da ist man z.B. Julia Iwanowna Kralowa, oder Sergej Iwanow Kralow venn der Vater Iwan hieß.
    #95Verfasser Chaja (236098) 06 Mär. 09, 14:09
    Kommentar
    Ich muß diesen Thread an dieser Stelle einmal entführen...

    @Sally:

    Was machen Deine Kinder, wenn Sie die Volljährigkeit erreichen ? Müssen sie sich dann für eine Staatsbürgerschaft entscheiden oder dürfen sie die doppelte Staatsbürgerschaft beibehalten ?
    #96VerfasserEl boludo06 Mär. 09, 14:29
    Kommentar
    # 95 "Reste davon findet man ja in Deutschland auch - alle Namen auf -sen und -son, viele auch auf -s (Friedrichs, Peters etc.) sind Reste eben jener Form der Namensgebung. Mit dem Unterschied, daß sie hierzulande nicht mehr von Generation zu Generation wechseln."

    Daran ist m.W. der Napoleon schuld, wenn ich mich recht entsinne. Der hatte wohl was gegen dieses Kuddelmuddel mit den ständig wechselnden Nachnamen in jeder Generation.

    Aber zumindest die Ostfriesen sind ja - allen Witzen zum Trotz - schlau: Viele von ihnen haben dieses alte Namensrecht (Vorname des Vaters + Genitiv-Endung = Nachname des Kindes) klammheimlich fortgeführt, indem sie diesen Nachnamen als Zwischennamen gegeben haben.
    Ich sage jetzt mal bewußt "Zwischennamen", denn welches deutsche Standesamt außerhalb von Ostfriesland würde sowas wie "Janßen" als Vornamen akzeptieren (und sei's auch nur der zweite Vorname)?

    Also, liebe Amerikanerinnen, die das Ausgangsproblem von EY haben: Heiratet einfach in Ostfriesland! Einen Nachnamen zum Vornamen umzufunktionieren dürfte hier kein Problem sein...
    #97VerfasserAnna C. (474640) 09 Mär. 09, 00:56
    Kommentar
    Kinder, deren Eltern unterschiedliche Staatsbürgerschaften (deutsch + eine andere) haben, dürfen jetzt (seit ???) die doppelte Staatsbürgerschaft behalten. Sie müssen sich nicht mehr entscheiden, welche sie behalten möchten. Aber in Deutschland gebornene Kinder von ausländischen Eltern müssen sich entscheiden, und die Staatsbürgerschaft ihrer Eltern abgeben, wenn sie als Erwachsene deutsche Staatsbürger sein möchten.
    #98Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 11 Mär. 09, 12:05
    Kommentar
    Du hast es genau beschrieben, Ey. Meine Kinder (JG 92 und 95) haben beide Staatsangehörigkeiten seit Geburt, und mußten sich nicht (nie) entscheiden. Da ein Elternteil Deutsch(er) ist, haben sie das Recht auf die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit. Seit etlichen Jahren (SPD-Grüne Reform) dürfen hier geborene Kinder ausländischer Eltern beide behalten (erhalten), sie müssen aber mit 18 entscheiden. Dies wird aber von verschiedenen Rechtsanwälte als gesetzwidrig, weil ungleich angesehen. Bin gespannt. Ich persönlich habe das Koch'sche Hetzkampagne 1999 gegen die doppelte Staatsangehörigkeit als sehr verletzend, ausländerfeindlich, & erniedrigend empfunden.
    #99VerfasserSally11 Mär. 09, 12:44
    Kommentar
    ...und dann kommt's noch drauf an, was denn die ausländische Staatsangehörigkeit ist. Zumindest innerhalb der EU (glaub ich) gilt nämlich, wenn sich das nicht vor kurzem geändert hat: Deutschland muss die doppelte Staatsangehörigkeit auch bei Erwachsenen akzeptieren, wenn das andere Land das auch tut.

    GB zum Beispiel hat kein Problem mit doppelten Staatsbürgerschaften, sodass ich sowohl den britischen Pass beantragen als auch meinen deutschen Pass behalten könnte. Allerdings müsste ich das extra beantragen, was wieder mehrere Hundert Euro kostet (Info von vor zwei oder drei Jahren).
    Und die britische Staatsangehörigkeit ist so teuer geworden, dass ich davon wieder abgesehen hab...
    #100Verfasser anorak (489071) 11 Mär. 09, 13:51
    Kommentar
    @anorak

    Das ist allerdings recht neu- bis vor kurzem war es zwar so, dass Personen die von Geburt an beide Staatsbürgerschaften hatten (z.B. weil die Eltern verschiedene Nationalitäten hatten) diese zwar behalten durften, eine Entscheidung eine andere Nationalität anzunehmen jedoch voraussetzte, dass die deutsche Staatsbürgerschaft abgegeben werden musste (bzw. die ausländische, wenn man die deutsche erlangen wollte).

    Das hat sich jetzt geändert, so dass man tatsächlich eine zweite Staatsbürgerschaft annehmen kann, ohne die deutsche aufgeben zu müssen.
    #101Verfasser Richard (236495) 11 Mär. 09, 14:21
    Kommentar
    Die deutsche Buerokratie weicht bzgl. der doppelten Staatsbuergerschaft auf. Fuer Nicht-EU-Laender wie Kanada muss zwar immer noch eine Sondergenehmigung beantragt werden, diese wird aber - im Gegensatz zu frueher - sogar haeufig genehmigt.

    Ich gehe davon aus, dass Sallys und EYs Kind(er) in 18 Jahren relativ problemfrei beide Staatsbuergerschaften behalten koennen... was fuer die Jungs eventuell Wehr-/Zivildienst bedeuten wuerde.
    #102Verfasser Mausling (384473) 11 Mär. 09, 14:33
    Kommentar
    Wenn es den Wehrdienst in 18 Jahren noch gibt...
    #103Verfasser Richard (236495) 11 Mär. 09, 14:36
    Kommentar
    cool, ich möchte auch meinen Nachnamen als Mittelnamen weiterführen. Muss mal die deutsche Botschaft anrufen, ob das geht... in GB geht's problemlos, aber ob die das dann auch in meinem deutschen Pass ändern...
    #104Verfasser anorak (489071) 11 Mär. 09, 14:55
    Kommentar
    GB zum Beispiel hat kein Problem mit doppelten Staatsbürgerschaften, sodass ich sowohl den britischen Pass beantragen als auch meinen deutschen Pass behalten könnte. Allerdings müsste ich das extra beantragen, was wieder mehrere Hundert Euro kostet (Info von vor zwei oder drei Jahren).

    The same is true in Germany now (i.e. I am purely British by birth but could now apply for German nationality without giving up my British nationality) but it also costs a bit, and you have to take a test, I believe.

    OT: Every time I see the title of this thread it looks so rhetorical!
    #105Verfasser CM2DD (236324) 11 Mär. 09, 15:44
    Kommentar
    I was told that I would have to give up my American citizenship if I chose to apply for German citizenship after my marriage. And there was no mention of petitioning for an exception. I think it unfortunate that I cannot participate in the political system here by voting etc, but since we don't know what the world will be like in 15 years, I am unwilling to give up my American passport... I guess to a certain degree it is also a question of identity, but for me that is not sooooo important.
    #106Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 12 Mär. 09, 09:09
    Kommentar
    @106 - couldn't agree more. I considered British citizenship only so I can vote in the General Elections really. As a Northern German from Schleswig-Holstein, which might as well have been Danish and indeed was in the past, I really don't find my nationality that important with regards to my identity.
    I'm fiercely patriotic about Schleswig-Holstein, but would just as happily have a Danish passport or the passport of another country with similar political and moral standards as the German one. I actually feel closer in a sense to Scandinavia than to Southern Germany.
    Oh... I'm rambling now, must stop... apologies...
    #107Verfasser anorak (489071) 12 Mär. 09, 10:06
    Kommentar
    @ #107: "I'm fiercely patriotic about Schleswig-Holstein ..."

    Then you must be aware of 'Matthäus Friedrich Chemnitz', aren't you?!

    If not, check here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig-Holste... . . . ;-))

    (... and I know of yet another memorial for him in HH-Altona, facing the Elbe-river) . . .
    #108VerfasserDaddy . . . (533448) 12 Mär. 09, 10:50
    Kommentar
    @108 - Natürlich! :)
    #109Verfasser anorak (489071) 12 Mär. 09, 12:02
    Kommentar
    Wieder was dazugelernt. (maiden names können zu middle names werden.) Ich finde das Thema sehr interessant & hab viel mit meiner Gastmutter in Oklahoma über amerikanische Namensgebungspraxis gesprochen, aber das kam nie zur Sprache.)

    Ich kann nur bestätigen, Standesämter sind eine bürokratische Tretmühle, logisches Denken sucht man vergebens!

    @ EY zu #87 & #93 - Congratulations zum Baby!
    Rein interessehalber - ich hab nicht ganz verstanden: Bezog sich das Problem mit der Geburtsurkunde Deines Kindes auf Deinen dort verzeichneten Namen? Was steht im Familienbuch als Dein Name? Oder sollte Dein Kind "Hollifield" als Teil seines Nachnamens tragen?

    Meine Geschichte:
    2003 wurde meine Tochter geboren. In meiner kyrillischen Geburtsurkunde wurde dabei der Vatersname entdeckt. War mir dessen nie bewußt, wir sind nach D, als ich ein kleines Kind war.
    Diesen Vatersnamen, zusammen mit meinem Nachnamen, sollte mein Kind als Nachnamen bekommen.
    Damit mein Kind nicht meinen - nie benutzten & komplett irrelevanten Vatersnamen - tragen muß, mußte ich ihn in einem Namensänderungsverfahren ablegen (mit Führungszeugnis, Meldebestätigung etc.) Dabei hatte ich noch Glück, weil ein "Vatersname eher dem Vornamen zugeordnet wird" (Frage: wieso sollte dann mein Kind ihn als Teil des Nachnamens bekommen?). Hat daher nur ca. 50 € gekostet. Bei Nachnamensänderungen geht das in die Hunderte!

    EY, bloß gut, daß in "both" D & USA lateinische Schrift benutzt wird. Bei obiger Gelegenheit wies man mich nämlich darauf hin, daß mein Nachname (nehmen wir "Schneider") nicht nach DIN-Norm transkribiert wurde (jeder lat. Buchstabe muß 1 kyrillischen Zeichen entsprechen - Шнайдер). In meinem PA, Paß, jeglichen Dokumenten steht Schneider. Mein Kind sollte nun Šnajder heißen. Auf ins nächste Verfahren: Ich mußte mich auf mein persönliches & Gewohnheitsrecht berufen, den Namen Schneider in dieser Form weiter zu tragen. Nicht etwa auf die Logik, deutsche Wörter deutsch schreiben zu dürfen.
    Alle Behördengänge mit einem Neugeborenen "unterm Arm".
    Wir wollten die Geburtsurkunde unserer Tochter nicht 2x ändern, also zogen wir die Verfahren mit monatelangen Bearbeitungszeiten durch, ohne Geld vom Staat. Danach war ein hübsches Sümmchen Eltern- & Kindergeld zusammengekommen & wir sind in den Urlaub gefahren.
    Beim 2. Kind legte ich wie beim Kartenspiel meine gesammelten Urkunden & Bestätigungen (5!) nacheinander vor; die Beamtin hat nicht schlecht geguckt!

    Viel Glück, es dauert eben ganz schön, aber irgendwann wird es gut.
    #110Verfasser Linchen (D) (490306) 12 Mär. 09, 12:39
    Kommentar
    EY: A good friend of mine recently moved to the States to get married and she and I have an agreement: She votes how I want her to here via absentee ballot and I do the same in the US. That way it at least feels like my voice is heard. Of course we are politically similar, otherwise it might be a struggle if she had asked me to vote against my convictions in the last election. But it is the best solution I can come up with. It still means I cannot sign local petitions, but oh well.
    #111Verfasser Selkie (236097) 12 Mär. 09, 13:29
    Kommentar
    If it is really just concerning publications- well has anyone ever asked you for ID to submit a paper?
    I changed my name, people still know who I am when I publish... but if you're really concerned. Why not simple change it according to german law and use the American version for scientific publications? Seems the least hassle...
    #112VerfasserSuse (Scotland)12 Mär. 09, 14:08
    Kommentar
    Just for information: the Belgiums have a good system for these cases, I'm Frau Jones (my maiden name), Ehrefrau Schmidt(hubby's name, with names changed to protect etc). As far as the Belgies are concerned if you were born Jones then you die Jones. The Germans obviously find this confusing (we live in the border area) but they usually muddle through after a degree of explanation and beard-scratching.
    #113Verfasserfish12 Mär. 09, 16:32
     
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