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  • Topic

    Das leidige Gerundium

    Ich hab da mal eine Frage zu den Gerundien im Englischem. Wofür die stehn und was sie ersetzen ist mir klar, nur würde mich mal interessieren ob man wirklich alle Verben nach denen ein Gerundium kommt, alle Präpositionen nach denen ein Gerundium kommt (ok, sind nicht so viele)... auswendig lernen muss oder ob es da irgendwelche Regeln gibt.
    Vielen Dank
    AuthorJonas09 Feb 07, 00:47
    Ein "gerund" auf English, ist ein Verb als Hauptwort, i.e., "Swimming macht Spass".
    Dewegen verstehe ich deine Frage nicht..... was soll ein Verb davor damit zu tun haben?

    Und für Präpositionen gibt's eh keine Regel...
    #1Author Todd (275243) 09 Feb 07, 01:10
    I think Jonas means verbs that are followed by an infinitive (I want to go), a gerund (I enjoy going), or either (I like to go / I like going).

    Most of the verbs you just have to learn. However, there are lists and practice exercises on the internet -- try searching for 'gerund' + 'infinitive' + 'ESL.'

    I'm not sure which prepositions you're thinking of. As far as I know, nearly all prepositions can be followed by a gerund instead of a noun.
    #2Author hm -- us (236141) 09 Feb 07, 01:21
    sind das meistens nur die Modalverben?
    #3Author Todd (275243) 09 Feb 07, 01:33
    Not really. Just because I'm in a generous mood, here's a list (from Azar, Understanding & Using Engl. Grammar):

    go (swimming, running, skiing, etc.)
    admit, advise, anticipate, appreciate, avoid, complete, consider, delay, deny, discuss, dislike, enjoy, finish, can't help, keep, mention, mind, miss, postpone, practice, quit, recall, recollect, recommend, resent, resist, risk, stop, suggest, tolerate, understand

    afford to, agree to, appear to, arrange to, ask to, beg to, care to, claim to, consent to, decide to, demand to, deserve to, expect to, fail to, hesitate to, hope to, learn to, manage to, mean to, need to, offer to, plan to, prepare to, pretend to, promise to, refuse to, seem to, struggle to, swear to, threaten to, volunteer to, wait to, want to, wish to

    infinitive + person
    advise someone to, allow someone to, ask someone to, cause someone to, challenge someone to, convince someone to, dare someone to, encourage someone to, expect someone to, forbid someone to, force someone to, hire someone to, instruct someone to, invite someone to, need someone to, order someone to, permit someone to, persuade someone to, remind someone to, require someone to, *teach someone (how) to, tell someone to, urge someone to, want someone to, warn someone to

    infinitive or gerund, same meaning
    begin, start, continue, like, love, prefer, hate, can't stand, can't bear

    infinitive and gerund, different meaning
    forget, regret, remember, try

    As for prepositions, I think the only time there would be a question about that is with 'to.' A few verbs use 'to' as an ordinary preposition, not as part of the infinitive:

    to be used to ____ing
    to be accustomed to ____ing
    to object to ____ing
    to look forward to ____ing

    It may help just to substitute a noun: used to the traffic, accustomed to her face, object to that idea, look forward to the party.

    But when '(in order) to' answers the question 'Why?', it's like an infinitive:

    I stopped smoking. (what? --> gerund)
    I stopped (in order) to improve my health. (why? --> infinitive)
    I stopped the video. (what? --> noun)
    I stopped (in order) to watch a video. (Why did I stop? --> infinitive)
    I stopped watching the video. (What did I stop doing? --> gerund)

    It's hard for me to judge as a native speaker, but it's probably not necessary to memorize most of the infinitive ones. It's mainly those in the first group (gerund only) that give foreign speakers trouble, and many of them should already be familiar.

    Hope that helps. (-:
    #4Author hm -- us (236141) 09 Feb 07, 02:36
    Hey - that's helpful.

    When I have to decide, I always try to figure whether there could also be a noun (Akkusativ-Objekt) behind the verb in question. Like, for example, in "admit" - I can have a sentence like: "he admits the crime", so obviously, the verb admit likes to be followed by an "Akkusativ-Objekt" (what's that in English?), which usually is a noun. Wherever that's the case, it's ok to put the gerund, because as Todd said earlier: What the gerund does is turn the verb into a noun.

    Therefore: "He admits the crime" --> "he admits killing his brothers rabbit".

    Try it out, it doesn't work always (in the list provided by hm, for example "manage to", "need to" and "deserve to" are counterexamples), but I use it as a rule of thumb.
    #5Author El Buitre (266981) 09 Feb 07, 09:37
    Good morning
    Thanks a lot to all of you - that really helps and makes life easier.
    Best wishes
    #6AuthorJonas09 Feb 07, 11:26
    In the years since I posted these lists, quite a few people have also asked about the question of gerund vs. infinitive after nouns and adjectives, not just verbs. I understand it's tricky, and I don't really have an easy shortcut, but this thread

    related discussion: of+gerund vs. infinitive

    gives some examples from a LEO user and from Michael Swan, Practical English Usage (3rd ed.), that could be useful as a starting point. Among them were

    (1) gerund
    the thought of ___ing
    the idea of ___ing
    tired of ___ing
    good at ___ing

    (2) infinitive
    a plea to ___
    an attempt to ___
    no wish to ___
    my decision to ___
    any need to ___

    (3) gerund or infinitive, possible change in meaning
    hope to ___
    no hope of ___ing
    intend to ___
    no intention of ___ing
    prefer to ___
    a preference for ___ing

    We might be able to add to these noun/adjective lists by just noting other examples we come across when we come across them.

    Swan is not as careful as Azar in sorting the verbs into the correct lists; he doesn't reliably separate the (1) gerund-only and (2a) infinitive-only from the (2b) infinitive with personal object, the (3a) either/or, and the (3b) either/or with a difference in meaning. However, if you can winnow them out of his messy lists, he does include several verbs that aren't in Azar's intermediate lists in #4 above, among them

    (1) gerund
    burst out (crying/laughing), contemplate, detest, endure, escape, excuse, face, fancy [BE], feel like, forgive, give up, imagine, involve, leave off, put off

    (2a) infinitive
    attempt to, beg to, choose to, dare (to), happen to, neglect to, trouble to

    (2b) infinitive + person
    beg (someone) to, command someone to, compel someone to, get someone to, help someone to, intend someone to, oblige someone to, request someone to, tempt someone to, trouble someone to

    (3a) gerund or infinitive, no difference in meaning
    forbid,* intend,* propose*

    *... though with these the infinitive sounds much more natural to me, at least in AE; the gerund sounds distinctly old-fashioned or BE.

    Perhaps some of you have yet other sources to supplement these lists, or you might notice individual additions when you come across them. I believe Azar had a more advanced-level book that I don't happen to have a copy of, and there are undoubtedly others since then.

    And if anyone is serious about this, please double-check me, I copied all these sort of fast. (-;

    #7Author hm -- us (236141) 01 May 12, 07:47
    related discussion: difference between suitable and is suited - #2

    I'm not where I can check a reference, but I hope I'm correct in adding these to the list:

    suitable for ___ing
    (well) suited to ___ing

    #8Author hm -- us (236141) 30 Jun 12, 23:53
    Der alte Faden ist eine Gelegenheit eine Irritation vorzutragen.

    Im deutschen(!) Werbe TV wird in letzter Zeit eine "Anti Age Creme" angepriesen. Ich übersetze das als eine Creme gegen das Alter, also eine Creme, die die Zeit zurückdreht, eine Art Zeitmaschine. Gemeint ist daher vermutlich eine Creme gegen das Altern. Auch wenn es so etwas ebenfalls nicht geben kann, müsste es dann nicht "Anti Aging Creme" heissen?
    #9Authorfransz (865285) 01 Jul 12, 12:00
    "Anti-Aging Cremes" gibt es aber schon seit Jahren (in wechselnder Großschreibung und Bindestrichsetzung), da musste sich halt jemand was neues ausdenken, aber nicht zu neu.

    Vermutlich soll Anti-Age bedeuten, dass es das sichtbare Alter bekämpft, oder so was.

    So gesehen sind Anti-Age Cremes etwas für Leute, bei denen es für Anti-Aging Cremes zu spät ist...immerhin sind sie ja schon gealtert.
    Aber ob das die beabsichtigte Aussage ist?
    #10AuthorYora Unfug (694297) 01 Jul 12, 12:08
    Anti-Age ist vermutlich ein verkapptes Programm zur Reduzierung der Rentenauszahlungen.
    #11Author Restitutus (765254) 02 Jul 12, 19:47
    Another one that came up:

    to make the mistake of ___ing
    #12Author hm -- us (236141) 02 Jul 12, 20:11
    Ich hab auch noch zwei:

    infinitive and gerund, different meaning:

    go on, mean
    #13Author Gibson (418762) 02 Jul 12, 20:20
    Two more infinitives that came up recently:

    (should) know better than to _____
    far be it from me to _____
    #14Author hm -- us (236141) 21 Jul 12, 20:13

    He stopped posting his letters. = Er hörte (damit) auf, seine Briefe (in den Briefkasten) einzuwerfen.

    He stopped to post his letters. = Er hielt an, um seine Briefe (in den Briefkasten) einzuwerfen.
    #15Author Reinhard W. (237443) 22 Jul 12, 12:30
    Reinhard, das stand schon in #4. Aber doppelt kann ja nicht schaden.
    #16Author Gibson (418762) 22 Jul 12, 13:06
    related discussion: inveigle vs coax

    to inveigle/trick so. into ____ing

    to coax/persuade so. to ____
    #17Author hm -- us (236141) 26 Jul 12, 07:00
    Doesn't it really just have to do with the preposition that comes before the involved verb?

    to- infinitive
    of- gerund
    into- gerund
    for- gerund
    #18Author Todd (275243) 25 Aug 12, 01:46
    Todd, klar, Präposition + gerund. Sobald ich weiß, dass ich im Englischen eine Präposition brauche (und welche), ist es einfach. Aber zwei Probleme sind damit verbunden. 1) to ist manchmal eine Präposition (looking forward to) und manchmal die Infinitiv-Partikel, und zweitens hat das englische Verb nicht immer eine Präposition dabei (stop smoking), im Deutschen steht aber der Infinitiv mit "zu", der zur wörtlichen Übersetzung verführt.
    #19Author Ingeborg (274140) 25 Aug 12, 09:27
    Und was ist mit "I look forward to seeing you"?
    #20Author El Buitre (266981) 25 Aug 12, 09:42
    "I look forward to" is verb plus preposition, and verb plus preposition is followed by a gerund/"ing" form - what is difficult for non-natives sometimes, I suspect, is that "to" is both part of the infinitive and a preposition
    #21Authormikefm (760309) 25 Aug 12, 10:17
    That makes sense.
    #22Author El Buitre (266981) 25 Aug 12, 10:25
    difficult for non-natives sometimes

    Im Deutschen könnte man es wohl am ehesten mit der Substantivierung des Infinitivs vergleichen. Auf Verb + Präposition folgt ein Pronomen oder Substantiv.
    Das gäbe die unidiomatische Formulierung Ich freue mich auf das Dich-Treffen oder die idiomatischere Ich freue mich auf das Treffen mit dir.
    Im Deutschen brauchen wir halt in diesem Fall noch einen Artikel - und die Großschreibung.

    So gesehen würde das auch die oft geäußerte Behauptung relativieren, im Deutschen gebe es viel mehr Substantive als im Englischen.
    #23Author manni3 (305129) 25 Aug 12, 10:46
    So gesehen würde das auch die oft geäußerte Behauptung relativieren, im Deutschen gebe es viel mehr Substantive als im Englischen.

    exactly - after all, gerunds are effectively "Substantive"
    #24Authormikefm (760309) 25 Aug 12, 11:08
    related discussion: I am slow to express my opinion.

    good/bad, (un)skilled, (in)experienced, (in)competent ...
    ... at ___ing

    slow, quick, happy, pleased, thrilled, delighted, sad, sorry, eager, reluctant, ashamed ...
    ... to ____

    quick to speak
    pleased to inform you
    sad to report that
    eager to try

    #25Author hm -- us (236141) 23 Sep 13, 23:09
    "ashamed" wird oft mit dem Gerund verbunden:

    "Ashamed of being white"

    I am not now, nor have I ever been ashamed of being black.
    #26Author Reinhard W. (237443) 24 Sep 13, 15:00
    Das ist einfach Teil der 'Nach Präposition kommt Gerundium'-Regel. Wenn also nach 'ashamed' eine Präp. steht, kommt IMMER das Gerumdium; wenn der Satz anders weitergeht, dann nicht. Das macht 'ashamed' nicht zu einem Wort, dass zwingend das G. braucht wie z.B. 'enjoy', daher finde ich es in diesem Faden eher verwirrend.
    #27Author Gibson (418762) 24 Sep 13, 15:18
    Yes; maybe part of the problem with including nouns and adjectives in this category at all is that it's really a collocation problem aka a preposition problem -- do you use the preposition 'to' or another preposition?

    I wasn't trying to lay down strict categories, just to respond as further questions arose. If anyone has a better way to organize the topic, or would like to start a separate thread on a related topic like prepositions, I would certainly support that.
    #28Author hm -- us (236141) 24 Sep 13, 17:36
    English speakers, do you use 'intend' with the gerund? Please comment in this related thread:

    related discussion: to intend on doing sth
    #29Author hm -- us (236141) 02 Jan 15, 18:45
    Another verb that takes the gerund:

    accept ____ing

    related discussion: Enough older - #143
    #30Author hm -- us (236141) 27 Apr 17, 09:15
    infinitive or gerund, same meaning
    begin, start, continue, like, love, prefer, hate, can't stand, can't bear
    ... + bother

    related discussion: bother to do oder bother doing..?

    #31Author hm -- us (236141) 04 Nov 18, 11:20

    Thank you, hm. Another thing I have always been a bit unclear about. Hope I am able to remember it ;-)

    #32Author B.L.Z. Bubb (601295) 05 Nov 18, 08:39

    Sehe ich es richtig, dass "to cost" mit dem Infinitiv und nicht mit dem Gerundium steht? Beispielsatz:

    It costs taxpayers to maintain that statue.

    #33Author harambee (91833) 06 Jul 20, 14:21

    That's a different structure, harambee.

    It cost me (indirect object) a lot of money (direct object) to buy our house (infinitive of purpose).

    #34Author covellite (520987) 06 Jul 20, 14:50

    Danke covellite. Wenn ich darüber nachdenke, kommt es mir richtig vor, was Du sagst, aber wenn ich jemandem erklären müsste, warum das denn ein grundlegend anderer Fall ist als zum Beispiel "to hire someone to" (in #4 aufgeführt), dann komme ich doch wieder ins Straucheln. Natürlich ist es nicht exakt gleich (sind ja verschiedene Verben ;-) ), aber dass es grundlegend unterschiedliche Strukturen sind, erkenne ich nicht sofort. Bin halt kein Grammatikexperte. Vielleicht versteht mein Unterbewusstsein das doch irgendwie besser, denn das hätte anscheinend zu Recht nicht erlaubt, dass ich

    It costs taxpayers maintaining that statue.


    Allerdings frage ich mich, ob mein Unterbewusstsein beim Satz

    Maintaining that statue costs taxpayers a fortune.

    auch so brilliert. Da hat es nämlich keine Einwände, legt aber auch kein Veto bei

    To maintain that statue costs taxpayers a fortune.

    ein. Dass beides korrekt ist, scheint mir ja unwahrscheinlich. Das ist aber wohl schon wieder eine ganz andere Konstruktion, leidiges Gerundium halt ;-)

    #35Author harambee (91833) 06 Jul 20, 18:16

    Nach wie vor einer der wertvollsten Fäden in LEO!

    #36Author Emil 14 (299747) 05 Aug 20, 19:10

    to be prone to ____ing

    related discussion: prone to
    #37Author hm -- us (236141) 02 Jun 21, 04:01

    #36: Da kann ich nur zustimmen.

    #38Author Jesse_Pinkman (991550) 22 Feb 22, 07:35
 ­ automatisch zu ­ ­ umgewandelt