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  • Topic

    Why did you learn German?

    The Bavarian cabaret artiste Gerhard Polt was asked why he learned Swedish. (And his Swedish is perfect, he performs in Sweden in Swedish.) He answered that he did't know anybody in Bavaria learnig Swedish. He almost felt guilty. And he had to do something about it.

    What puzzles me is the motivation for English, Americans, ... to select German as a 2nd or 3rd language, to learn, to teach or to translate German. If I weren't a German myself I probably would have studied any language but German.

    The question is: Why did you, English, Americans, ... select that language?

    A few of my suggestions follow.

    * I didn't know of anybody learning that rotten language (i.e. the aforementioned Polt syndrome).

    * My ancestors came from Germany.

    * My spouse is or was (in case you divorced her or him) a German.

    * I found nothing else to study.

    * I have fallen in love with Nietzsche.

    * I am a Marxist.

    * At home my parents had a German shepard.

    * In school our German teacher was such a nice person. (That is the 2nd most implausible answer.)

    * I love that language. (Now, that is the most implausible answer.)

    * ... ... ... (your answer goes here)

    Even though not all of these suggestion do sound seriously the question itself is. I appreciate your support and will process your answers in article to my blog.

    AuthorBarnie1 (317537) 09 Apr 08, 15:20
    Jetzt hatte ich fast gedacht, du meinst es ernst. Aber mit deinem letzten Satz ("... will process your answers in article to my blog") disqualifizierst du dich bloß selbst als jemand, der anderer Leute Leben in seinem Blog verarbeitet - wahrscheinlich, weil er selber nichts Spannendes erlebt.
    #1Author - xx -09 Apr 08, 15:27
    The French teacher at our school was slightly nicer, but all our German teachers were really nice and funny (slight exception: the only actual German lady, whom we didn't understand).

    My motivation: I was offered a job in Germany.
    I actually asked if they had a job in France; they said "No, but there's one in Dresden" and I thought "oh well, why not? It would be funny to see all that Socialist stuff".
    #2AuthorCM2DD (236324) 09 Apr 08, 15:27
    i think the most plausible reason would be: i like THE SOUND of that language ;)
    #3Authora germän09 Apr 08, 15:35
    Someone could like the sound of the German language? I was told that it comes across quite harsh in the English speaking world, with all its ch-x-ck-Sounds and what not.
    #4AuthorWu09 Apr 08, 15:39
    - like the sound??? of GERMAN????? you are joking, aren't you?

    Was meinst Du, warum es in Deutschland soviele Dialekte gibt?

    Ich habe mal angefangen, Walisisch zu lernen, weil es aussah als ob es eine Herausforderung sein koennte, mit den ganzen LLLwwyyy etc...
    #5AuthorThe Real ME (GB) (369909) 09 Apr 08, 15:41
    #3: That's a joke, indeed..

    @ME (GB)..then, pleas tell me how to pronuonce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch ;)
    Something alongthe line of lanvairpullgwingell..?
    #6AuthorWaringham (384862) 09 Apr 08, 16:09

    Double 'L' in Welsch is pronounced (roughly) as the 'CHL' in 'Chlor' if chlor is spoken with a soft ch

    so it's roughly

    #7Authorodondon irl09 Apr 08, 16:11
    What's wrong with the way Tscherman sounds? I can seriously say I like it. Listen to e.g. Dutch for a while and you will find German sounds subtle and refined.
    #8AuthorGeert Wilders09 Apr 08, 16:16
    Yes, why should someone like a harsh language? Why should someone like action and martial arts movies?

    Don't we all like romantic movies best? Particularly the french ones to achieve the maximum softness?

    @odondon: Chlor is pronounced with a k.

    #9AuthorVinx (424414) 09 Apr 08, 16:17
    Vinx: for "romantic" languages, I prefer french or Italian/Spanish much over English.. But if I had to choose from English dialects, I love the Irish accent.. sounds always a little drunk (no offense given!)

    ododndon: Thanks..I get the point.. Chlor pronounced Swiss?
    #10AuthorWaringham (384862) 09 Apr 08, 16:23
    i wasnt joking. i already met an american who said he started to learn german (and searched for a job in germany) because he likes the sound of the language. and besides, what's ur freakin problem? i am german and i actually like the sound of it.

    ps: there's just one word i can think of when it's about french: gay
    #11Authorgermän09 Apr 08, 16:24
    In the first year of the upper school I had the choice of taking either Latin or German. With the perfect logic of an 11-year old, I came to the conclusion that a living language was likely to be more useful to me than a dead one (I can't remember whether the requirement to have Higher/A-level Latin to get into some universities had already been dropped, or whether I wasn't aware of the potential problem).

    With the benefit of hindsight, I think I made the right choice!
    #12AuthorRMA (UK) (394831) 09 Apr 08, 16:30
    I recently had a discussion about the benefit of learning Latin. The argument was, that Latin helps you to understand other languages. Well. But I think most people don't learn that much languages that it pays to learn a language just to understand the other ones.

    So I'd always go for a living language too.
    #13AuthorVinx (424414) 09 Apr 08, 16:39
    Thank you for your entries so far.

    No, -xx-, I am not kidding and I am not a troll either. I am just interested in that subject. People ask me "why did you learn Russian?" (My answer is the 3rd in the list of suggestions.)

    But you are right that my life is not very exiting. But I don't see how this poll could change that.
    #14AuthorBarnie1 (317537) 09 Apr 08, 16:40
    You learned Russian because your spouse is a German?
    #15AuthorVinx (424414) 09 Apr 08, 16:44
    I chose Latin..Makes me able to at least read a lot of Spanish, Italian, Portugese and French..even if I don't speak any of these more than rudimentary..
    French sounding gay..that might be a's soft..imagine: women like that.. up to some point..
    Russian, btw sounds quite nice, too. And I like hearing Japanese.. Sounds funny..

    I was told (by American/English/Australian people) that they though German sounded harsh or funny..but never "nice"..To illuminate that, they made some "ch-kr-x"-sounds, too.. ;)
    #16AuthorWaringham (384862) 09 Apr 08, 16:45
    Vinx: I expected this feedback. However, I was to lazy to build a correct sentence. If you replace German by Russian you'll have the solution.
    #17AuthorBarnie1 (317537) 09 Apr 08, 16:50
    related discussion: [fr-de] Ausstieg aus dem Übersetzerberuf

    I'm sorry that half of it is French, but it's about someone loving German much more than her native language
    #18AuthorLouisa09 Apr 08, 16:50
    Ok, but learning Spanish would have made you able to read all those languages too, wouldn't it? And you would have learned to pronounce at least one of them correctly. (How to pronounce Latin?)
    #19AuthorVinx (424414) 09 Apr 08, 16:51
    When it comes to sound: some girl from a no-european country (and language) compared German to "throwing stones". A strange comparision. But that was her listening comrehension.
    #20AuthorBarnie1 (317537) 09 Apr 08, 16:55
    @Vinx: Spanish was not available at that moment..We could chose between Latin and French starting 7.Klasse..and Latin and French again starting 10.Klasse.. so I did latin first and achieved the "Große Latinum"..needed for many scientific studies anyway..and then french.. Which is quite good.. except for the language ;) SCNR
    #21AuthorWaringham (384862) 09 Apr 08, 16:59
    An accent reduction teacher once told me that she thinks German sounds lovely - so many different sounds - and she absolutely disagreed with my statement that German might sound harsh. Her argument was that there are harsh sounds and soft sounds in a mix that she likes.
    #22AuthorAGB (236120) 09 Apr 08, 17:14
    Warum sollen denn nur weiche Sprachen schön klingen? Ich mag auch den Klang von Niederländisch, obwohl ich die Sprache kaum verstehe und auch als Deutsche die vielen ch-Laute nicht richtig aussprechen kann. Auch Spanisch kann sehr hart sein.

    Ich hatte die Wahl zwischen Französisch und Latein als zweiter Fremdsprache (nach Englisch). Französisch fand und finde ich für mich völlig indiskutabel, ich mag die Sprache einfach nicht, weder den Klang noch das Schriftbild. Mag sein, daß man sich in Französisch wunderbar klar/poetisch/mehrdeutig/romantisch/technisch oder sonstwie ausdrücken kann, es ist bestimmt nützlich, die Sprache zu beherrschen, aber ich habe einfach eine Aversion dagegen. Daher war es für mich gar keine Frage, daß ich das Latein wählen würde. Wäre eine weitere lebende Sprache im Angebot gewesen, z.B. Spanisch oder Russisch, hätte ich länger überlegt - um dann vielleicht doch Latein zu wählen, weil ich mich damals sehr für Geschichte und Archäologie interessiert habe.

    Der Grund, eine Fremdsprache zu lernen, muß doch nicht immer rational oder praktisch sein, wie "ich will in dem Land arbeiten". Wenn ich die entsprechende Muße hätte, würde ich mich bestimmt noch an ein, zwei Sprachen versuchen, einfach weil ich Lust dazu hätte. Welche Sprachen jemand schön findet läßt sich doch ebensowenig erklären, wie eine Vorliebe für Grün und eine Abneigung gegen Blau.

    Deutsch ist sicher nicht eine der einfachsten Fremdsprachen, aber davon abgesehen wüßte ich nicht, warum man nicht Deutsch lernen sollte.
    #23AuthorRussisch Brot (340782) 09 Apr 08, 17:16
    Bisher haben nur zwei Nicht-Deutsch-Muttersprachler sich mit der gestellten Frage befasst,
    ansonsten streiten sich die Deutschen (und Österreicher) darüber, wie hässlich ihre eigene Sprache ist oder ob man das so sagen kann.
    Nur mal so als Denkanstoß ...
    #24Authorwilli winzig (236294) 09 Apr 08, 17:23
    Niederländisch höre ich auch unheimlich gerne.. da ich ein wenig Platt snake, versteh ich auch ab und zu was.. :)
    Generell finde ich Sprachen unheimlich interessant.. Auch mal einfach nur zum Hören..halt den Klang..Auch z.B. Czechisch klingt interessant.. Daß sich auf so engem Raum wie hier in Europa so viel verschieden Sprachen entwickelt haben, ist doch Wahnsinn.. Sämtliche skandinavischen Sprachen höre und lese ich auch gerne..Finde die Sonderzeichen toll..å, ø...
    #25AuthorWaringham (384862) 09 Apr 08, 17:24
    I learned German because I had to catch the bus to run track and would have missed it if I had taken Spanish as I wanted to. And so a silly choice made in 7th grade colors an entire life...just goes to show how random the whole thing is really.
    #26AuthorSelkie09 Apr 08, 17:28

    SZ vom 8.10.2004

    Wenn die deutsche Sprache eine Seele hat, dann muss es ihr gestern warm ums
    Herz geworden sein. Denn da machte ihr der niederländische Autor Leon de Winter
    ein unwiderstehliches Kompliment.

    Deutsch zu sprechen sei für ihn ein leiblich-körperliches Erlebnis, jeder Satz be-
    reite ihm physiologische Lust, die sich über die Mund- und Zungenbewegungen ver-
    mittle. "Nur wer nicht mit der deutschen Sprache aufgewachsen ist, kann ermes-
    sen, was für eine wunderbare Erfahrung ein deutsches Sch ist."

    Das Wohlbehagen, mit dem er sprach, unterstrich seine Liebeserklärung aufs Glaub-
    würdigste. Der Schriftsteller Ilija Trojanow, in Bulgarien geboren, auf Deutsch
    schreibend und ohnehin ein Weltenbummler, fügte hinzu, die Deutschen hätten sich
    "wohl wegen ihrer Italienliebe" eingeredet, ihre Sprache sei nicht schön.

    Je weiter man sich aber von Deutschland entferne, desto mehr werde die Schönheit
    des Deutschen gerühmt. In Indien gelte es als allbekanntes Musterbeispiel für
    Schönheit und Wohlklang. Diesen Blick von außen zu fördern, dafür gibt es seit
    20 Jahren den Adelbert-von-Chamisso-Preis, der Autoren auszeichnet, deren Mutter-
    sprache nicht Deutsch ist, die gleichwohl auf Deutsch schreiben.

    Wie nun verkündet wurde, geht der Chamisso-Preis 2005 an Feridun Zaimoglu, der
    Förderpreis an Dimitri Dinev. Wir freuen uns mit und für die Autoren.
    #27Authormanni3 (305129) 09 Apr 08, 17:29
    Dinev ist ja auch aus Bulgarien nach Österreich gekommen und geblieben. Und seine Romane (sehr zu empfehlen: "Engelszungen") kommen in Österreich deswegen so gut an, weil wir doch alle ein bisschen balkan sind... :-)

    Seit ich im Ruhrgebiet wohne, muss ich auch zu Hause fleißig die Vorurteile gegen "die Daitschn" ausräumen. Man kann doch den Rheinländer, den Westfalen und die komischen Polen dazwischen nicht mit dem Piefke aus dem Witzblatt vergleichen... ihre Dialekte sind doch sehr weich! (Man höre mal einem Flamen zu, an den cks -gutturalen Affrikaten- kann sich der Tiroler was abschauen.)
    #28Authortigger09 Apr 08, 17:41
    Also ich finde Deutsch auch schön vom Klang her, sogar schöner als Französisch! Angefangen habe ich (Muttersprache Hindi) mit Deutschlernen, weil ich zu dem Zeitpunkt (gleich nach B.A.) noch unentschieden war, was/ob ich weiter studieren wollte.

    Aber weitergemacht habe ich hauptsächlich wegen der Unterrichtsmethode am Goethe Instiut hier bei uns in Indien. Höchstmotivierte LehrerInnen und kreativ ausgestalte Stunden ohne irgendeine Form von Druck!
    #29AuthorMOTHER (383672) 09 Apr 08, 17:45
    Ich bin Italienerin und finde, dass die deutsche Sprache überhaupt nicht harsch klingt. Es gibt einige Dialekte, die mir persönlich weniger gut gefallen und bei denen ich auch Schwierigkeiten habe, die einzelnen Wörter korrekt zu verstehen, aber grundsätzlich klingt schön gesprochenes Hochdeutsch in meinen Ohren äusserst gepflegt und elegant.
    Just my 2 cents
    #30AuthorVenezia09 Apr 08, 17:51
    I also prefer the sound of German to French, I like the changeable rhythm far more. It is such a satifying language to pronounce when you want to say something earthy or crisp, but also when you want to make music with an ü or sound smooth with a ch.
    But then I don't need to describe this lovely onomatopaeic, sibilant, bouncy language here on a forum where people know it, do I? After all, the people who criticise it are surely mainly those who have little idea how it is pronounced! :-)
    #31AuthorCM2DD (236324) 09 Apr 08, 17:54
    Latin was mandatory starting in the fifth grade at the Gymnasium I went to, followed by English (7th) and a choice between "Alt-Griechisch" and French in the 9th (silly options to my mind at the time; I mean, who really wants to become an archaeologist or a pharmacist at the age of 15?). I hated Latin, but I have to say it helped me tremendously as an adult: for one thing, I was able to understand a lot of the English vocabulary that I hadn't encountered during school, and for another, it made it possible for me to understand what my Mexican ex-wife and her even more Mexican mother said to each other in Spanish - I always thought they had to be talking about me. :-)

    Personally, I am not a big fan of the sound of German (high German or "Prussian") and I readily agree with those who say that if they hadn't grown up with it, they would have never taken it voluntarily. On the other hand, I absolutely love the Bavarian and Austrian dialects that I grew up with; they're much softer to my ears and seem to roll off my tongue in a much smoother motion.
    #32Authordude (253248) 09 Apr 08, 17:56
    Many of the entries here are referring to Latin as an alternative to a living language.

    Well, I also remember the choice between Latin and French in school. I took Latin. It was one of the decisions in my life I regret most.

    And the reason for that decision was quite simple: there is nobody around anymore you can talk to, I could not disgrace myself. We never had a real conversation in a Latin class. We had "read!", "repeat!", "translate!". That was something I could master.

    Sorry, didn't want spoil the party. Just my personal experience.
    #33Authorbarnie109 Apr 08, 18:57
    Warning: I'm giving you more information than you asked for.

    I started learning Spanish in third grade and continued through high school. It was my only choice for a foreign language until ninth grade. There was no requirement for any foreign language, let alone two, so Spanish was always an elective.

    In college I was a music major and chose German because it was one of the main languages for music - and wasn't French or Italian, which are what most other music majors were taking. (I guess there was a desire to be a little different.) Besides, sung German sounded beautiful to me. In addition, my religious denomination has its roots in Germany. So there were several factors involved in my initial choice. After I started learning German I fell in love with it, enough so that I am now a German teacher at the high school level.

    I also discovered that I simply enjoy language: the sound of various languages, communicating with people, seeing how the languages are put together, etc. Along the way I have also studied Biblical Hebrew, Koine and Classical Greek, Aramaic and Latin because I wanted to read the Bible and other works in the original, French as a second "music language", and Arabic, Syriac and Ugaritic for my uncompleted post-graduate work in Near Eastern Languages and Literature. Eventually I did get the MA in German and Spanish. Some other languages I hope to acquire some day include Welsh, Japanese, Russian, Swahili and Akkadian (cuneiform script is fascinating). And I'm looking at programs in linguistics for a doctorate.
    #34AuthorRobert -- US (328606) 09 Apr 08, 19:07
    I also chose German purely out of interest, not for any practical reason in the sense of work or academic study. Like Robert, I started learning Spanish as a child and took it as my foreign language all through high school, even though the classes weren't very good.

    I didn't start learning German until I was in college & wanted to understand (and pronounce better) the texts of the Bach passions we were singing. (And I confess I had sort of a crush on someone living in the German house on campus that year. (-; ) I never studied it again formally after that, but luckily that one first-year German class gave me a really solid foundation for the grammar and pronunciation.

    I've been motivated to take it up again later in life just because I enjoy it and enjoy languages. I've come to appreciate lieder and opera as well as Bach, so classical music is still one of my main impetuses. And I've had fun researching my 1/8 German ancestry, even though that wasn't much on my mind at the time I began learning the language.

    #35Authorhm -- us (236141) 09 Apr 08, 19:48
    @hm -- us: I know you live in Texas, like around Dallas (or is it Houston?), right? Have you ever been to any of those German communities, like Braunfels, TX, or Fredericksburg? I've been through there a couple of times, but never actually stopped there. I hear the German communities there are pretty active in..., well, being German, I guess. ;-)
    #36Authordude (253248) 09 Apr 08, 20:17

    I'd rather not say too much about where I live, but yes, I have been to New Braunfels (/'bronn-flz/ *g*) and Fredericksburg, though that's not where any of my relatives came from. Those two are both larger towns, with more people who have moved there from other places. Other much smaller communities that were originally mostly German probably still have a higher proportion of people whose families have lived there for generations.

    But not that many even in more rural areas. Very little German is spoken nowadays in Texas. The generation who still learned it at home as children in those few isolated enclaves are now in their 80s or so and dying off fast, and even they learned something of a mishmash of German rural dialects (far from Hochdeutsch) and English, not unlike a lot of 3rd- and 4th-generation Spanglish today. There are a couple of interesting articles on the internet about Texas German, some even with audio examples.

    My impression is that the larger small towns nowadays are about as German, and as 'active' in German culture, as people are who celebrate, say, St. Patrick's Day in Boston. That is, there are still a few descendants of Germans among the crowd, and the towns still play up their German heritage for tourism purposes, but often it's just a good excuse for everyone to observe Oktoberfest or anything involving beer and sausage. (-;
    #37Authorhm -- us (236141) 09 Apr 08, 20:42
    —> as people are Irish who celebrate St. Patrick's Day
    #38Authorhm -- us (236141) 09 Apr 08, 20:44

    sorry, hm, I didn't mean to divulge anything you don't want known. There are lots of German communities around the US, of course, with the Amish or Pennsylvania Dutch among the largest and oldest. I have not visited them, but I was in Belize a few years back, and it was there of all places that I "accidentally" ran into a small community of Mennonites (some miles south of Orange Walk) who had apparently settled the area as far back as the 19th century, possibly even earlier. It was very interesting to listen to them; it seemed as if time had stood still, because not only did they, as do the Amish, reject modern amenities like elictricity and cars, their German was also very old, to say the least. I understood very little of what they were saying. :-)
    #39Authordude (253248) 09 Apr 08, 20:52
    I decided to take German in high school because 1) I knew I was going to become a scientist or some sort, and German was still considered necessary, 2) almost everyone else was taking Spanish, and neither Latin nor French appealed to me, and 3) I was a masochist (German had a reputation for being difficult, second only to Latin). Thirty-five years later, I speak a passable German, converse on a variety of topics, and can read novels and technical papers in German. That said, I will never truly "master" the language.

    I grew up in a house where (American) English was spoken well, and my English sprachgefühl was very good. However, my German teacher realized that she was never going to be able to help us compare German grammar to English without teaching us the English grammar first. (At the time, the prevailing wisdom was that studying grammar in English class was a waste of time.) So, studying German had the unintended side effect of improving my English.
    #40AuthorTom (AE) (237076) 09 Apr 08, 21:11
    @ Tom: Ich hatte eine Lateinlehrerin, die erklärt hat:
    wie wollt ihr eine Fremdsprache lernen, wenn ihr nicht mal Deutsch könnt?
    #41AuthorIrene (236484) 09 Apr 08, 21:40
    @germän :

    "ps: there's just one word i can think of when it's about french: gay"
    You mean like "happy"?

    As for me, I did take German because the German teacher at my high school was the best of the 3 language teachers. I liked it and stuck with it. That pretty much sums it up. :)

    #42AuthorHanna <AE> (238274) 09 Apr 08, 22:31
    I started German in high school because I didn't want to take Latin or Physics, which were the other options. I kept taking German because we didn't actually do much work in class and it was easy to get an A. And I love languages in general.

    I picked it back up again partway through university and now I'm doing an exchange year over here. I realize now I'd need years here to master it, but it's fun. And it's actually turned out to be relevant to my studies, which I never really envisioned at age 14.

    Sure, it's not romantic and flowing like, say, Italian, but some accents are cool sounding. And it can be a very flexible and expressive language.

    PS. I'm pretty sure the French aren't happy. Which is funny, considering how many people I know practically require smelling salts upon hearing the accent. "'allo. 'ast du Feuhhrrrr?" *THUD* I don't know about gays, but it probably works for them as well.
    #43AuthorJones09 Apr 08, 23:52
    I started German because I wanted to go on a grand adventure, and my high school had three options for a year-long exchange program, one slot in Blanford England, two spots in Schleswig Holstein, two spots in Baden Wurtemburg. Once they accepted me, I started taking German. My German teacher really was gay (also hilarious, in that slightly bitter, sarcastic way that older high school teachers can have, but well meaning, in any case). Later in college I went back for a junior year in Munich. I always thought that Bavarian sounded like someone speaking Prussian with an irish accent. (I also speak Spanish (two years living in Mexico), and Uruguayan Spanish reminds me of Irish English as well, go figure). And, ok, nerd revelation time, I really do like the Grammar, and get a great sense of accomplishment when I correctly stack all the verbs at the end of a subordinate clause, and if it is center embedded with one of those long modificatory prepositional phrases in it, oh near extacy! Yeah, and some interesting literature, too.
    #44Authormkh13 (426176) 10 Apr 08, 00:43
    I was born here (even though my parents should have emigrated to Minnesota ... but they didn't). A number of my relatives live in the U.S. and Canada now but I'm lumbered with having to speak this old-fashioned language ... ;-)
    #45AuthorWolfman (236211) 10 Apr 08, 00:58
    Very interesting answers!

    Did people ever make fun of you for learning german?

    In many english/american movies and tv series the german language is portrayed quite badly I find. If english/american actors play a german or speak german they often seem to prepare for the role by watching chaplin's "great dictator". "ACHTUNG! SCHNELL! BLITZ!" and "VORSPRUNG DURCH TECHNIK!(pronounced in the same way) seem to be what a lot of people perceive the german language to be like:) (361497) 10 Apr 08, 01:15
    I learned German because my high school offered only German and French and while I had almost no interest in learning German, I had less interest in learning French. It helped a bit that my father and an older brother and sister had learned German, I thought, "Well, if I need help with homework, I can ask someone."

    I really wanted to learn Latin and started that at college. That's when I realized how hard it is to learn a language well and decided to take up German again, seeing as I already had four years invested in it. And then I've somehow never been able to get away from German. Later I did take French and I've dabbled in other languages as well. I just enjoy learning languages.

    @chris: I think it may depend on where someone is from. Lots of Americans have German heritage, it's the largest group claimed on the census, I believe. In some parts of the country it's as much as 50%, lots of people have German last names and so on. They would have little reason to make fun of it. Of course, in my high school the French students made fun of the German students and vice versa, but that had nothing to do with the languages and everything to do with the need many teenagers have for making fun of someone else.

    [OT] @Wolfman: If you are interested in ethnic enclaves, you could try the Amana Colonies in Iowa sometime. Very interesting. When I got to Hessen, I thought, "Hey, this reminds me of the Amana Colonies!" Or Frankenmuth in Michigan. When I visited there after having been in Germany for a year, it was, well, "interesting". Or New Glarus in Wisconsin. That's a Swiss village, but you can buy yodeling music F.O.B. I definitely would like to go to New Braunfels in Texas, if I ever get there.
    #47AuthorAmy-MiMi (236989) 10 Apr 08, 03:31
    Sorry, my off-topic comment was meant for dude, not Wolfman, though Wolfman may read it if he would like.
    #48AuthorAmy-MiMi (236989) 10 Apr 08, 03:33
    I started learning German because I had a girlfriend in high school whose family was German and who wanted me to take it with her.

    I continued taking German and got my bachelor's in German because I absolutely love the way the language sounds (much better than French, my minor), I am enthralled by German culture and history, I enjoy the more complicated grammar, the declinations. . . I think it gives German a certain level of sophistication and beauty.

    --an American
    #49AuthorJosua(US) (343310) 10 Apr 08, 07:21

    I have gotten and still do get poked fun at quite a bit for speaking German. Especially in high school, I got to hear a lot of Hitler jokes. They were all light-hearted, though. I think most young Americans are too disconnected from German culture to have much of a serious opinion of it. They just know what they learned in history class and make light-hearted jokes about it.
    #50AuthorJosua(US) (343310) 10 Apr 08, 07:24
    Wow, what an interesting thread!
    I say thanks in the name of all native German-speakers here for all the praise for our language!
    When I was in the US, I noticed that people on one hand don't know much about Germany or just a little about German (Nazi) history. On the other hand, nearly everybody I met had once been on exchange to Germany, had a German relativ/ancestor or had been there as a soldier.. All in all, I just met positiv reactions on me being from Germany.. :) Same in Australia..
    #51AuthorWaringham (384862) 10 Apr 08, 08:50
    I met a girl who said she learned German because she loved reading books in German - and that was really the only reason she started learning German... that was quite a new one - for me at least...
    #52Authormapleleaf10 Apr 08, 11:28
    Und welche Autoren waren ihr da wichtig? (Nietzsche und Marx wurden ja schon in der Eingangsfrage genannt...)
    A propos, irgendwer hat mir erzählt, er hätte einen US-Amerikaner getroffen, der Tschechisch gelernt hätte, um 'Kafka im Original' lesen zu können... wenn's nicht wahr ist, ist es gut erfunden! *rofl*
    #53Authortigger (236106) 10 Apr 08, 11:31
    Wie wir jetzt wissen, klingt Deutsch ja auch unheimlich EROTISCH! Dieser Max Mosley z.B. fährt voll darauf ab!
    #54AuthorN/A10 Apr 08, 13:09
    deutsch klingt nicht erotisch!!!!!
    kenne keinen der so was behaupten würde!;)))
    #55AuthorBELZE10 Apr 08, 13:24
    @6 - I can tell you how to pronounce it, but you can't really write it down. Also, I'd have to be looking at it the whole time or I'd get confused :-)

    Welsh is actually not that difficult (lots of French influence!) once you get your head around the pronounciation......

    #56AuthorThe Real ME (GB) (369909) 10 Apr 08, 14:34
    @ 52 und 53 um deutsche Autoren lesen zu können: Ich hatte mal eine Schülerin aus Argentinien, bei der war es Freud. Bei der Gelegenheit ist mir aufgefallen, was für einen geschliffenen Stil er schrieb.
    #57Authormanni3 (305129) 10 Apr 08, 20:05
    Belze, I think German can sound erotic. So now you know one person who thinks so.

    I might as well add my 2 cents to this thread.

    I started learning German after finding out we could take a 2nd language as an elective at my school, because it has always had an association of cool and smart for me. My family had some friends who spoke it and traveled there a lot.

    I also love the sound of German, but I don't really appreciate it unless I am back in the States and then hear German again. That is also when it sound sexy to me--especially because Germans are usually very serious and intellectual-sounding when they talk, or at least the people who are abroad.

    I wish I could meet some of the other people who posted here, because I have always felt like the only one who likes the sound of languages (German, Dutch, Norwegian, to name some) AND who thinks grammar is interesting and linguistics is cool. I have also never met anyone else (especially not any Germans) who likes the German dialects--let me listen to a Swiss accent, or a Franke, or the Munich Rs--they are so great!

    What is a shame is that the Germans (in general, exceptions may apply) don't derive much pleasure from their language--they don't think it sounds good, they don't think it's fun, and they certainly can't laugh about it. Which is too bad, because it can be pretty funny--and sorry if I offend anyone, but saying things like "blitz und vorsprung durch technik" in a funny voice is very amusing.

    All in all, I am glad I chose to learn German. The biggest advantage: Latin might get you a better score on the SAT, but if you learn German, you might actually learn to speak English well as a result.

    #58AuthorCourtney10 Apr 08, 22:01
    Re 56: An English girlfriend's parents used to take her to the Isle of Anglesey off the Welsh coast for their holidays. She once sent me a postcard from Llanfair P.G. and I learned the pronunciation many moons ago ... Welsh people told me that the pronuciation wasn't bad at all. ;-)

    These days I can only remember the "Llanfair..." at the beginning and the "gogogoch" at the end and "tysilio" somewhere in the middle (or was it "tysiliogogogoch"?).
    #59AuthorWolfman (236211) 10 Apr 08, 22:03
    Hy tigger (# 53), guter joke, merk' ich mir. Erinnert an den kerl, der jahre lang spanisch gelernt hat, weil er nach braslilien auswandern wollte. Nach seiner ankunft dort ..., na ja.
    #60Authorub10 Apr 08, 22:07
    @Courtney: In the early 60s (last century ...) I started studying Dutch. My teacher was quite amazed because I was the only one who gave as a reason "I just like the language". All the other ones had relatives, girl- or boyfriends in the Netherlands or went there for shopping. At that point, I had never visited the country. I used to listen to Dutch radio stations (good country music programs!).
    #61AuthorWolfman (236211) 10 Apr 08, 22:09
    @ 58 Hallo Courtney: "I have also never met anyone else (especially not any Germans) who likes the German dialects
    Ich mag meine Muttersprache und meine/n Dialekt/e! Und ich ärgere mich oft über die Haltung vieler Deutschen (s. z.B. # 4,5,6), ihre Sprache abzuqualifizieren. Viele erkennen gar nicht ihre Schönheit. Deshalb auch # 27.

    Ich finde die Beiträge der Nicht-Deutsch-Muttersprachler sehr interessant und bin Barnie1 dankbar für diesen Faden :-)
    #62Authormanni3 (305129) 10 Apr 08, 22:31
    manni13 (# 62): "ich ärgere mich oft über die Haltung vieler Deutschen ihre Sprache abzuqualifizieren"

    Genau das meinte neulich auch ein brit konsul (Hamburg?) im fernsehen: "die deutschen haben ein problem mit ihrer sprache"

    Sie erfinden "englische" wörter wie "backshop" (bäckerei), "bodybag" (nein nicht leichensack, sondern rucksack soll das heissen), oder der hit schlechthin, "handy". Ihren kindern geben sie namen, die sie selbst gar nicht richtig aussprechen können. Aber leute mit dialekt halten sie für unterentwickelt.

    In France gibt es internet seiten in lengadocian, niçard, provençau, gascon, lemosin, auvernhat, vivaroaupenc. Sprachen / dialekte (?), die ich noch nicht einmal dem namen nach kenne.

    #63Authorub10 Apr 08, 22:56
    @Wolfman - Do you need a special type of radio to pick up the Dutch country music stations? Or did you live in the Netherlands at that time?

    Den Faden habe ich nicht ganz durchgelesen, aber ich war gerade 10 Jahre alt, als mein Vater nach Hause kam, und uns mitteilte, wir werden demnächst in Deutschland stationiert werden. Meine Eltern konnten schon etwas Deutsch, da sie hier 1953 - 1955 bereits stationiert waren. Sie kauften sich dennoch ein Berlitz Buch, um ihre Kenntnisse aufzufrischen - hatten aber große Schwierigkeiten, es mir aus den Händen zu reißen :-) Wir kamen in Juni an, wohnten in einem kleinen Dorf, und bis die Schule in September anfing, konnte ich schon relativ gut Deutsch sprechen.
    #64AuthorCarly-AE (237428) 11 Apr 08, 00:49
    Ich muss zugeben, dass ich Deutsch als Fremdsprache in der Schule sehr gehasst habe und freiwillig nie lernen wuerde. Es war meine zweite Fremdsprache, ein Pflicht, was man halt erledigen musste. Mein Kontakt mit Deutsch hat auch erstmal mit Abitur geendet. Die spaetere Entscheidung, nach Deutschland studieren zu kommen, hat meine damalige Freundin getroffen. Ich bin dann quasi hinterher gefahren. Erst in DE habe ich festgestellt, dass das gehasste, sterile Hochdeutsch auch hier unter Leute so gut wie eine Fremdsprache ist ;) Als ich das Badische Dialekt gehoert habe, habe ich auch verstanden, wo eigentlich das Leben der Sprache geblieben ist. Seit dann mag ich die hiesige Sprache sehr, trotz beherrscht habe ich sie noch lange nicht. Also ich lerne jetzt Deutsch fuer die Lokalitaeten ;)
    #65AuthorMarek Lewandowski14 Apr 08, 12:12
    *lol* Marek .. Du weisst schon das mit Lokalitäten im Deutschen recht häufig Kneipen gemeint sind? :)
    #66Authorla.ktho14 Apr 08, 13:33
    Where were you stationed? I worked on US bases in Germany for 11 years as a civilian (Frankfurt before it closed, Heidelberg, Karlsruhe, and Spangdahlem)
    #67AuthorRichard214 Apr 08, 14:41
    Richard, I just happened to be born here, too - my parents were stationed in Kaiserslautern. The second and third tours were to Mainz-Kastel (near Wiesbaden). When my father retired from the AF, he then started working at Rhine-Main Air Base (for about 15 years) as a civilian, and spent the last two years before he really retired in Ramstein. Small world, Richard2 - I lived in Karlsruhe for 8 months, right on the former Air Base, which was turned into a "Naherholungspark," when given back to the Germans :-))
    #68AuthorCarly-AE (237428) 14 Apr 08, 14:52
    la.ktho: Deswegen ein ':)' am Ende ;P
    Na, zumindest eine 'Zweideutigkeit' habe ich reingeschmuggelt...
    #69AuthorMarek Lewandowski14 Apr 08, 15:51
    I chose to learn German 40 years ago in High School because I thought German accents sounded cool. I think I was thinking of the way the Germans spoke in Hogan's Heroes:

    #71Authorthomas14414 Apr 08, 19:52
    Carly: did you attend a DoDDS school?
    #72AuthorRichard215 Apr 08, 12:18
    Richard2 - Yep, graduated from H. H. Arnold :-)
    #73AuthorCarly-AE (237428) 15 Apr 08, 12:50
    Ich hab mir das nicht ganz ausgesucht, wurde eher ausgesucht... Habe einen (damals) netten deutschen Studenten in der Schweiz kennengelernt. War 30 Jahre lang mit ihm verheiratet.
    Die Rückverwandlung der Ehrenbayerin in eine Carioca ist erfolgreich vollzogen. Die meisten Menschen in Brasilien, die Deutsch lernen wollen, tun es um Wagner oder die Lieder von Schumann zu verstehen! Auch die Philosophie-Liebhaber wollen auch manchmal deutsche Philosophen im Original lesen können.
    Wegen des schönen Klanges ist es bestimmt nie, deutsch klingt für Brasilianische Ohren unheimlich hart.
    Aber das erlernen der Sprache hat mich zum logischren Denken erzogen. Ich glaube ich bin intelligenter geworden...
    #74AuthorCARIOCA (324416) 15 Apr 08, 16:18
    ub (63): Ein "Backshop" ist keine richtige Bäckerei, sondern eine Backwarenverkaufsstelle - und da verknotet sich ja die Zunge ;)
    #75Authoralain-de15 Apr 08, 16:51
    @ 74 CARIOCA:

    Diesen Eindruck kann ich mir gut vorstellen. Denn umgekehrt klingt portugiesisch für deutsche Ohren (jedenfalls meine) extrem weich und immer etwas genuschelt.
    #76AuthorAdonis15 Apr 08, 17:04
    Die Peinlichkeit des Wortes "Handy" ist nicht seine Existenz sondern seine Schreibweise.
    "Händi" ist doch ein sehr hübsches kurzes Neuwort für ein Hand-Telefönchen, allein die Englische Schreibweise macht das Wort zu einer dummen und Aufgeblasenen Lüge weil es englischsprachige Weltläufigkeit vorgaukelt aber tatsächlich provinzielles pseudo-Deutsch ist. (361497) 16 Apr 08, 00:03
    wow, i'm amazed that i read this thread completely through...! I am also surprised to find that many people from the US had started learning german so late, because i sometimes mistake them for Muttersprachler. :0)

    I started learning german two years ago. It was a requirement of the univ and i randomly chose it. Nothing strikes me as being particularly exceptional about the classes; indeed, if anything they were only remarkable in the fact that they weren't bad...but they weren't good either (as most of the students didn't do the weekly assignments etc.) Then I took a conversation class, where most of the students weren't motivated.. then over the summer i lived in the Max Kade house here and lived with some very interesting people, and there was also an American graduate student here who was really motivated in every respect--language, everything. And she wouldn't stop speaking german, even if others would switch into english. I picked up on this 'nur deutsch' Idee and did a lot of my course work in german, which is easy to do since i'm studying Mathe, and Mathe never becames outdated or biased toward a regional or political view. Eventually I became addicted to the leo dict and other things.. I should point out that, as someone working in mathematics, I'm not *required* to speak a lot of english (also: no long-winded english essays, etc. and my part-time job doesn't involve a lot of speaking), so this has always gave me more time for german :-) I think it is one of the best things to happen to me during my university career. I haven't been to germany yet but I look forward to studying there for a few years.

    Anyway, peace out, have a good morning

    #78AuthorGeorgie - at (322963) 16 Apr 08, 00:54
    referring to Courtney #58

    "...but if you learn German, you might actually learn to speak English well as a result."

    Do others share the impression that learning German improved your English?
    Is that because German is a close relative of the English language, just with higher grammatical complexity? Or would any foreign language do the same trick? (361497) 16 Apr 08, 02:19
    @#63, 77 (OT): Da hier immer so auf dem armen "Handy" rumgehackt wird, möchte ich hier nochmals (hab` ich in einem anderen Faden schon mal) mit den Worten eines Bekannten aus den USA für diese "Kreation" eine Lanze brechen: Dieser Bekannte meinte, dass er das Wort Handy für Mobiltelefon eigentlich ganz nett findet und durchaus auch nicht ganz unpassend (anders würde er wahrscheinlich die Sache mit dem Bodybag einschätzen ;-) ...), schließlich sei dieses Ding ja wirklich sehr handy, sprich geschickt, handlich ... ;-) Ergänzung von mir: Dass es sich überhaupt um ein englisches Wort handelt, sollte nicht so sehr stören; schließlich ist ja auch "Mobiltelefon" nicht gerade von reinster deutscher Abstammung (da müsste man dann schon bewegliches Fernsprechgerät o.ä. sagen, *schauder*)

    P.S. @ub: Du ignorierst durchgängig die Besonderheit des Deutschen, dass es Groß- und Kleinschreibung gibt. Hast Du etwa auch ein Problemverhältnis zur deutschen Sprache??? ;-)

    #80AuthorSille7416 Apr 08, 02:38
    hi chris,

    my post should serve as a counterexample to that claim.

    i'm amazed that i read this thread completely through is bad english, resulting from german influence.
    #81AuthorGeorgie - at (322963) 16 Apr 08, 02:53
    I took German in high school because, after two hard years of French, I wasn't very good at French. I thought I would try German (while continuing to take French for one more year).

    I was amazed to find that I learned German quickly and easily. I liked the sound of the language. I had great teachers. It wasn't long until my German was much better than my French. I can't explain why this happened.

    After two years of German in high school and a year in college, I never took a German class again. (And I have never lived in Germany, though it is something I'd like to do, at least for a few months.)

    German became a life-long hobby. I have always enjoyed it, and I have read German books, magazines, and newspapers, but have rarely had a chance to speak it in the US. (I have made occasional business trips to Germany, however.)

    A few weeks ago, I got my first job that actually requires German. I will be translating material for the English version of a German web site three days a week. I'm delighted! This comes about 45 years after my decision to try German as an alternative to French.
    #82AuthorGeorgeA (94115) 16 Apr 08, 07:06
    @chris #79: That depends on what you mean by "improved your English". (No, really)

    I am a German teacher but have also taught Spanish. Study of any foreign language will normally prompt a comparison between the native language and the target language. (Comparison is one of the national standards for foreign language in the US.) This usually takes place with liberal use of "grammar jargon" and explicit discussion of received grammar conventions (or "grammar rules" if one is more prescriptivist). As a result, students often acquire a better understanding of the formal aspects of their own language and the terminology associated with them. For someone who must write formal papers (such as high school and university research papers), this proves valuable.

    In addition, certain things that a teacher emphasizes will also show up in other areas. I acquaint my students with Grimm's Law, and this often causes them to take a closer look at English words and where they came from. In class I put a good amount of emphasis on "dissecting" composita as an aid in approximating a meaning without reaching immediately for a dictionary. One of the English teachers at my high school recently told me that my students are consistently the best in the class at figuring out new vocabulary by identifying roots, prefixes and suffixes. They have simply sharpened their skills at looking at language in general. Another thing I do in comparing English and German is point out how English looks increasingly like German as we go back in time. Using Grimm's Law (in part, German d = English th) and German verb endings, I point out that du hast = thou hast. We then apply the principle to other constructions. As a result, my students have an easier time reading Shakespeare than most of their contemporaries. I've repeatedly seen the light bulb go on.

    So, studying German often helps students improve their formal English skills. This will be true to some extent, no matter what language is studied. (For example, Spanish uses the subjunctive extensively, and many students come to understand that English has a subjunctive only after studying Spanish.) I believe the close relationship between English and German enhances this phenomenon for students of German.

    On the other hand, unless a student is in an immersion context and using German almost exclusively, it is unlikely that studying German (or any other foreign language) will have any impact whatsoever on daily oral English. Occasionally something may come through, but it is rarely viewed as an improvement. Sometimes my students complain that they start using "German dates", i.e. day-month-year, in their English class and get marked down for it. The English teacher mentioned above also chuckled about that and said that while she doesn't count off for it, she recognizes it as an influence from the foreign language class.

    I hope this helps to answer your question.
    #83AuthorRobert -- US (328606) 16 Apr 08, 07:23
    Thought I would contribute to the thread:

    I started learning German at age 11 when my best friend's father went on sabbatical to a German uni, so she moved to Essen for the year. I thought it would be cool to write her letters in German. Sadly, although that was fifteen years ago, my German is no great shakes. I have to read a lot in German though since I am an art historian so I am glad to have a working ability in it.

    Unexpected bonus: Germans make sandwiches for breakfast! Being a great lover of sandwiches I suppose it was just serendipity.
    #84AuthorCC16 Apr 08, 07:29
    I learned German at first because I was offered a scholarship to study in German although I was more drawn into language like Japanese or French. I always think that French sounded posh and flamboyant and Japanese mostly because of their culture. My German teacher back then was young and highly motivated to teach us. After a few years here, I still find it difficult sometimes to pronounce the word R or ch the german ways.
    #85Authorm.s24 Apr 08, 11:36
    sorry forgot the -y.
    #86Authorm.s24 Apr 08, 11:37
    I learnt German because I had been interested in languages since I was little, due to my father often saying things in Italian, French, or German and testing my comprehension (he even tried to teach me to say "papillon" when I was a baby, hoping my first word would be a French one!), and the secondary school I went to offered French and German as electives and naturally I wanted to do both, which I did. Thus I started learning German at the age of 13 and a half.

    Another secret reason why I wanted to learn German was due to teasing at primary school - the boys had an obsession with "Nazi bombers" and swastikas (probably from war comics) and for no apparent reason kept calling me and my sisters "nasty nazis" or referring to my father as "Shitler" and our car (a 1953 Plymouth station waggon) as "the tank". I wanted to get back at them by learning some really good German swear words. Unfortunately, as it turned out, swear words weren't part of the curriculum. Despite that sad fact, I ended up doing not too badly in German (and French.) As I mentioned in another thread, learning languages also gave me a better understanding of English grammar.

    I got teased FOR learning German, as well though. One reason was because my teacher from the 4th Form onwards was a lesbian ("Ooh, what do you want to learn German for, eh? Are you a lezzie like Miss XY?"). Another comment I heard was: "Wot do yuh need German and French for, eh? You'll never get a job in a factory with those subjects!"

    Interestingly, my secondary school had only recently introduced German into their curriculum - as a replacement for Latin, the school obviously also being of the opinion that a living language is more useful than a dead one. We had very good teachers for German, too, most of whom had spent a considerable time in Germany. That was more than could be said for the French teachers, some of whom were actually ex-Latin teachers in need of another subject to teach!
    #87AuthorMary nz/a (431018) 25 Apr 08, 02:33
    some people can be so cruel. I hope you didn't listen to them.

    Sticks and stones
    will break my bones
    but names will never
    hurt me
    #88AuthorGeorgie - at (322963) 25 Apr 08, 10:16
    Hier etwas Lustiges zum Kland diverser Sprachn. Ich traf mal in Shanghai einen humorvollen Franzosen, der in Anwesenhein von Deutschen oft follgendes erzählte.
    Deutsch ist doch die wohlklingendste Sprache der Welt. Klingt folgendes nicht wie Musik?
    "Der Vogel singt im Baum"
    Dagegen das Französische:
    "L'oiseau chante dans `l'arbre!"
    Wenn man da das Deutsche noch etwas weicher und das französische etwas härter ausspricht, hört sich das doch lustig an, oder?
    #89AuthorHans25 Apr 08, 10:33
    Entschuldigt bitte die Druckfehler!
    #90AuthorHans25 Apr 08, 10:34
    The top 2 classes in my high school had to learn German for 2 years and after that it was optional. I just fell in love with the language and have just kept studying it! For me it has a distinct beauty. Lots of imagery. And I love Grammar :) Maybe also as so few others study German (there are 6 of us in my year at our university) so it's a unique privilege.
    #91Authorandrea26 Apr 08, 21:00
    I learned Spanish from Kindergarten-6th grade. Sadly, I had a different teacher every single year and therefore didn't learn much from 4th grade on. When I was required to start a language again in 9th grade, I was somewhat sick of spanish. Half of my friends were taking german, and they seemed to be having a lot more fun than the spanish kids, so I chose that (french was not an option until the next year).

    When I went to Mexico last year I felt kind of stupid for learning German instead of Spanish. However, this year in AP Lit/Comp, German has been really useful in understanding translation differences in Kafka's Metamorphosis. I'm going into engineering next year, and I definitely plan on doing some sort of Study Abroad. Some of the school's I'm looking at even have internships abroad. Most of the engineering related study abroad opportunities are in Germany or german-speaking countries, so now I'm happy with my choice. (Other, "less important" reasons too : AP Deutsch is half the size of AP Spanish, so we have way more fun)
    #92AuthorKartoffelkuchen28 Apr 08, 01:41
    Hallo Kartoffelkuchen, was ist AP?
    #93Authormanni3 (305129) 28 Apr 08, 06:59
    Advanced Placement

    When a student takes the AP Course and then passes the AP Test (a standardized test administered in May each year), the student can receive university credit for the high school course. This is a way to shorten the time spent at university (and thus save some money) and/or move to advanced courses rather than taking introductory German (or other language) and repeating a lot.

    If you're interested in learning more about the program, here's the website for College Board, who oversee the program, certify the courses, and assess the tests:
    #94AuthorRobert -- US (328606) 28 Apr 08, 07:53
    Ich war als Gastschüler ein Jahr in den USA und hab so nen guten Eindruck hinterlassen, dass meine Gastschwester die damals 8 war, jetzt im College Deutsch lernen möchte. Das ist doch mal ein schöner Grund. Zu Deutsch hat sie eben mehr Bezug als zu Spanisch.
    Eine andere Bekannte hier in Hong Kong lernt jetzt Deutsch um zu Ihrem Freund nach Deutschland zu ziehen. Das ist natürlich ein sehr romantischer Grund, aber ohne Deutsch gibts auch kein Visum und vermutlich keinen Job. Sie findet übrigens auch, dass die Sprache schön klingt. :)
    #95AuthorSternderl (429113) 28 Apr 08, 10:08
    Danke, Robert :-)
    #96Authormanni3 (305129) 28 Apr 08, 12:10
    I was offered a job in Switzerland, although the ocmpany language was English so I didn't use it that much. Then I got a new job in Germany where I needed to speak German and then I met my husband who is German and could speak very little English so I was forced to learn German.
    #97AuthorAlpena28 Apr 08, 16:34
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