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    German missing

    In outward seeming the lilies that toiled not, neither did they spin.

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    In outward seeming the lilies that toiled not, neither did they spin.

    Sources
    Kann mir bitte jemand sagen was dieser Satz bedeutet?
    Author Fuxflux (1314440) 04 Feb 23, 09:20
    Sources

    "Consider the lilies, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these." (Luke 12:27 RSV).


    https://www.unity.org/bible-interpretations/l...


    28Und warum sorgt ihr euch um die Kleidung? Schaut die Lilien auf dem Feld an, wie sie wachsen: sie arbeiten nicht, auch spinnen sie nicht.

    29Ich sage euch, dass auch Salomo in aller seiner Herrlichkeit nicht gekleidet gewesen ist wie eine von ihnen.


    https://www.bibelwissenschaft.de/bibelstelle/...

    Comment

    Das ist aus der Bergpredigt. Oben das vollständige Zitat und die deutsche Übersetzung.


    Sinngemäß: Blumen wachsen einfach, sie arbeiten nicht, sie spinnen nicht.

    Bedeutung etwa: Halte dich nicht mit nichtigen Problemen auf.

    #1Author penguin (236245) 04 Feb 23, 09:27
    SuggestionLilies
    Sources
    Danke Penguin für diese ausführliche Antwort.
    #2Author Fuxflux (1314440) 04 Feb 23, 09:38
    Comment

    Hier noch eine etwas ausführlichere Erklärung mit den Vögeln des Himmels und den Lilien auf dem Felde:

    https://predigtforum.de/2009/09/14/schaut-die...


    Aber der reverend kann das sicher noch besser erklären.

    #3Author penguin (236245) 04 Feb 23, 09:39
    Comment

    Well, Penguin had a good stab at the meaning but was misled by Fuxflux, who should have given the source of the quote:


    It comes the short story "The Regatta Mystery" by Agatha Christie:


    Isaac Pointz and Leo Stein were Hatton Garden diamond merchants. Sir George and Lady Marroway came from a different world - the world of Antibes and Juan les Pins - of golf at St Jean de Luz - of bathing from the rocks at Madeira in the winter.

    In outward seeming they were as the lilies that toiled not, neither did they spin. But perhaps this was not quite true. There are diverse ways of toiling and also of spinning.


    I don't recall ever having seen the expression "in outward seeming" and can't find any explanations of its meaning. It sounds very dated. I read it as meaning "They gave the impression that they were like the lilies that toiled not, neither did they spin".


    "Toil" means to work very hard and "spin" (in this context) means to spin thread.


    So the whole sentence, rewritten in current English, means something like "They gave the impression that they didn't have to work".


    I've never read anything by Christie and wonder if The Regatta Mystery is typical of her writing style. I find the phrasing and biblical reference very dated and would have thought it was much older than it actually is.

    #4Author FernSchreiber (1341928)  04 Feb 23, 09:59
    Comment

    Ja, da wäre eine Quellenangabe natürlich sinnvoll gewesen. Der entscheidende Satz aus FernSchreibers Post ist dieser hier:


    "Toil" means to work very hard and "spin" (in this context) means to spin thread.

    #5Author penguin (236245) 04 Feb 23, 10:04
    Comment

    Perhaps "From the outside they looked like the lilies that toiled not, neither did they spin" is a clearer rerendering of the original text.

    #6Author FernSchreiber (1341928) 04 Feb 23, 10:07
    Comment

    Ich war auch eher an dem "in outward seeming" hängengeblieben und war gerade so weit, es als "outer appearance" zu verstehen, äußerer Anschein.

    Die hier versammelte Gesellschaft erweckt also den Eindruck nicht arbeiten zu müssen, mit der Einschränkung, dass vielleicht ihre Arbeit nur nicht erkennbar ist, weil es halt viele verschiedene Arten zu arbeiten gibt.


    Der genannte Abschnitt aus dem Anfangsteil der Bergpredigt, einer Pastiche aus höchstwahrscheinlich echten Predigten Jesu, gehört in den unterschiedlichen Versuchen einer Gliederung stets in einen Textzusammenhang, der erst mit Mt 6,34 endet:

    Darum sorgt nicht für morgen, denn der morgige Tag wird für das Seine sorgen. Es ist genug, dass jeder Tag seine eigene Plage hat.


    Durch das Zitat werden die vier hier skizzierten Personen als Menschen dargestellt, die nicht auf tägliche Erwerbs- oder gar Lohnarbeit angewiesen sind, eigentlich eine Persiflage auf die Bedeutung der zitierten biblischen Passage, aber dadurch doch gut charakterisiert.

    #7Author reverend (314585)  04 Feb 23, 10:15
    Comment

    Was mal wieder die Bedeutung von Textzusammenhang, auch Kontext genannt, und Quellenangaben belegt (und ich war ja schon stolz, die Bergpredigt erkannt zu haben!)

    #8Author penguin (236245)  04 Feb 23, 10:25
    Comment

    #7 Durch das Zitat werden die vier hier skizzierten Personen als Menschen dargestellt, die nicht auf tägliche Erwerbs- oder gar Lohnarbeit angewiesen sind,


    No, I don't think it necessarily implies that all four didn't have to work, only Sir George and Lady Marroway (who) came from a different world. There's a clear contrast between them and the diamond merchants who, being merchants, presumably did have to work.

    #9Author FernSchreiber (1341928) 04 Feb 23, 10:46
    Comment

    #4,6,9, FernSchreiber: ja, stimmt alles. Ich habe zu schnell gelesen.

    Aber immerhin sind die Händler in der Hierarchie ihrer jeweiligen Firma offenbar so weit oben angelangt, dass sie sich schon ohne Mühe die Zeit für eine Auszeit nehmen können. Als das Buch 1939 erschien, war das ja alles andere als eine Selbstverständlichkeit. Insofern sind auch sie arriviert und privilegiert, wenn auch nicht auf der gleichen Stufe wie Adel, der von den Erträgen seines Vermögens leben kann.


    "(to) toil" war mir übrigens aus einem älteren Kontext bekannt. In Amazing Grace heißt es ja "Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come".

    #10Author reverend (314585) 04 Feb 23, 11:15
    Comment

    Ich bevorzuge diese Erklärung:


    BRIAN:  “Consider the lilies. -  In the field.”

    LISTENER: “Consider the lilies?”

    BRIAN: “Well, the birds, then.”

    LISTENER: “What birds?”

    BRIAN: “Any birds.”

    LISTENER: “Why?”

    BRIAN: “Well, have they got jobs?”

    LISTENER: “Who?”

    BRIAN: “The birds. Have the birds got jobs?”

    LISTENER: “Says the birds are scrounging.”

    BRIAN: “The point is, they do all right, don’t they?”

    LISTENER: “Good luck to them.”

    LISTENER: “They’re very pretty.”

    BRIAN: “Okay. And you’re much more important than they are. So what are you worrying about? See?”

    LISTENER: “I worry about what you’ve got against birds.”

    BRIAN: “I haven’t got anything against the birds. Consider the lily.”

    LISTENER: “He’s having a go at the flowers now.”

    #11Author thisismyknick (1117613) 04 Feb 23, 11:53
    Comment

    That is so good!


    #4 I find the phrasing and biblical reference very dated. 

    Well, a Bible quotation is a Bible quotation (and, as is usual, the form in which it's cited is based on the KJV -- Matthew rather than Luke -- they toil not, neither do they spin).

    But phrases like "In outward seeming" and "diverse ways" do sound quite stilted and, I would say, not typical of Christie. Is there, perhaps, a narrator whose style this is supposed to be? I don't know this story.


    #10 "(to) toil" war mir übrigens aus einem älteren Kontext bekannt. ...

    Yes. There was also Churchill's famous "blood, toil, tears and sweat".

    #12AuthorHecuba - UK (250280)  04 Feb 23, 13:06
    Comment

    #12 It wasn't the wording of the biblical quotation that I found dated but its use in itself. But I imagine people were more familiar with the bible when Christie wrote the story and it would have meant more to them. Or else Christie wanted in outward seeming to be intellectual.


    The story doesn't have an identifiable narrator. It was published in the USA in a collection of short stories and had a mixed reception, perhaps because it was felt that the detective story didn't work well in the short story format. I've looked at a couple of other examples of Christie's writing and they don't exhibit the same stiltedness. Perhaps she was experimenting with her style.

    #13Author FernSchreiber (1341928) 04 Feb 23, 14:27
    Sources
    Comment

    Agatha Christie and the lilies (of the field) came up in another forum discussion, relating to a usage in Dead Man's Folly. She used it in other works as well. The metaphor of the "lilies of the field" for the idle rich is quite common in pre WWII literature, isn't it? I feel like I've read it several times. Most memorably in Wodehouse:

    "Like the lilies of the field, they toiled not neither did they spin but lived quite contentedly on the paternal dole."

     

    In outward seeming, to outward seeming... to me these expressions sound like "to all appearance", which is to say, they carry an unspoken "but" - The Marroways appear to be idle and thoughtless but a there is more there than meets the eye.


    Stilted? Perhaps. Maybe just more old-fashioned language chosen to go with the Biblical "toiled not, neither"


    #14AuthorAE procrastinator (1268904) 05 Feb 23, 17:43
    Comment

    #14 Like the lilies of the field, they toiled not neither did they spin but lived quite contentedly on the paternal dole.


    Thank you, That is quite excellent. Better than the Christie. I must reread Wodehouse.

    #15Author FernSchreiber (1341928) 05 Feb 23, 18:20
     
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