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    German missing

    Stricken off (Weggestrichen)


    Stricken off (Weggestrichen)

    Hi Everyone, I have just noticed that no reference was made to the use of the word "stricken" also in the sense of "stricken off" (weggestrichen) in the entry on "stricken". There seems to have been a focus on the meaning of the word without its combination with "off". Can someone have this option added? I guess google will provide sufficient proof of correctness. Just a suggestion.

    Best regards!
    AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 28 Jan 12, 21:19
    Don't you mean "struck off"?
    #1AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 28 Jan 12, 21:23
    SuggestionStricken off
    No KinkyAfro. Just stricken off!
    #3AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 28 Jan 12, 21:26
    #4AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 28 Jan 12, 21:27
    SuggestionStricken off
    Can't understand the problem! KinkyAfro I guess the fellow doesn't need responding to. People who need to grow deserve to be ignored.
    #5AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 28 Jan 12, 21:30
    This is not the right section of the forum to suggest adding a word to the dictionary. Please go to New Entry and read the instructions:

    Linkziel nur für angemeldete Nutzer sichtbar

    Note that you will need to provide context examples in both German and English, and probably to explain where or when this variant was used. 'I guess google will provide sufficient proof of correctness' is not enough in this forum; it sounds like you want us to do your research for you.

    If you only want a translation, you need to give a context example here -- are you thinking of, for example, removing a lawyer's permission to practice? If so, there may also be regional differences; I would be inclined to call that BE, so I couldn't say which verb form sounds right.
    #7Authorhm -- us (236141) 28 Jan 12, 22:35
    Im BE definitiv "he was struck off the register".
    #8AuthorLady Grey (235863) 28 Jan 12, 22:45
    SuggestionStricken off
    Thanks hm for the info. But please note that I am not intending to have any word included in the dictionary by all means and so didn't want anyone to do my research for me. I only thought it could be useful sharing the missing link with others. Nothing more. I didn't have any stake in it. For future suggestion however I have taken good note of your tips. So thanks once again.

    @Lady Grey,without going into much details, I guess I'd feel more confortable saying "Some passages have been stricken off the text" than saying "they have been struck off...". But I guess both are right as this source seems to confirm: Greetings and best regards!
    #9AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 28 Jan 12, 23:40
    @ #9:
    Frisky, could you be more specific about your language background on your LEO profile please. "Stricken/struck off the text", for example, sounds wrong in my variety of (British) English. Certain other elements of your English in #9 also sound unfamiliar/odd to me.
    #10AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 28 Jan 12, 23:49
    SuggestionStricken off
    So KinkyAfro how can I help you if you don't mind? There is a huge difference between sounding wrong in your ears and being correct! But be sure it is right and please don't get personal. Make your own suggestion if you have one. A simple Google scan for "Stricken off the list" may help you check out the number of hits.
    #11AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 28 Jan 12, 23:52
    FriskyLarr, hier muss sich keiner verbiegen, Du kannst also ruhig in der Sprache schreiben, in der Du Dich am sichersten fühlst.
    #12AuthorLady Grey (235863) 29 Jan 12, 00:02
    SuggestionWhat's going on here?
    @Lady Grey: Was hast Du für ein Problem? Wo kommt denn verbiegen her?
    #13AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 29 Jan 12, 00:04
    #11: Make your own suggestion if you have one.

    "Some passages have been deleted from the text" sounds an idiomatic option to me.

    Am I right in assuming your German is stronger than your English?
    #14AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 29 Jan 12, 00:06
    SuggestionWhat's going on here?
    @Lady Grey: Was hast Du für ein Problem? Wo kommt denn verbiegen her? What Problem are you people having understanding a simple expression? "Stricken off the list" provides 16,900,000 hits. That shouldn't be difficult to understand should it?
    #15AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 29 Jan 12, 00:08
    SuggestionStricken off
    @14. No KinkyAfro. Dead wrong. "Sounds like", "Assuming" etc. Has that got much to do with the thread? For some reason, you and Lady Grey seem to prefer going down the conflict lane! Striking off and deleting are not necessarily the same if you can imagine lines that are visibly struck off in a passage. So, this is about my last response. Its becoming too personal!
    #16AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 29 Jan 12, 00:14
    #16: this is about my last response

    Never say never, eh? ;-)
    #17AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 29 Jan 12, 00:20
    SuggestionStricken off
    Yes Kinky! Sorry about that. Just seeing it too. I guess I wrote faster than I was thinking! But please just cut this crap now, will you?
    #18AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 29 Jan 12, 00:27
    OT @ #18:
    You might find this thread useful: related discussion: Wie "vulg." ist crap?
    #19AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 29 Jan 12, 00:32
    Die Information hier Dictionary: strike off sollte genügen, die Partizipien stehen kursiv hinter dem Verb, wenn man darauf klickt.
    #20AuthorLady Grey (235863) 29 Jan 12, 01:12
    SuggestionStricken off
    #20 Lady Grey ich finde Frisky hat hier Recht. Was Leo vorgibt reicht offensichtlich nicht aus. Google gibt tatsächlich genügende Treffer her für "Stricken off the list". Habt ihr überhaupt nachgeschaut oder kann das alles falsch sein in Google? Hier sieht es so aus, ais hättest Du und KinkyAfro von diesem Begriff noch nie gehört und den Frisky deshalb deskreditieren wolltet. Keiner ist hier eine ultimative Autorität und ihr mußt euch nicht auf Brechen und Biegen gegen etwas stellen nur weil ihr davon noch nie gehört habt. Einwenig Offenheit und Lernbereitschaft bitte. Alles zu Personalisieren ist auch nicht im Sinne des Erfinders.
    #21AuthorTobbyKim (849173) 29 Jan 12, 10:14
    #21 gibt tatsächlich genügende Treffer

    we all know that google offer rich pickings for anyone looking for ignorant statements

    agree stricken off is a NO
    #22Authornoli (489500) 29 Jan 12, 11:19
    Suggestion#22 Treffer können nicht alle falsch sein
    Das Problem hier ist dass jeder einfach zu anmaßend ist. Und dann dieser Drang dazu sehr "judgmental" sein zu wollen. Es ist dein gutes Recht Millionen von Treffer als "ignorant statements" abzustempeln. Fakt ist nur: You are not an absolute authority to dictate the terms of a language. Erst recht nicht die universelle englische Sprache die längst nicht mehr das Kulturgut der Engländer alleine geworden ist. Außerdem noli, es ist okay wenn du es ablehnst. Nichts dagegen. Mich hat aber massiv gestört wie Lady Grey und KinkyAfro den FriskyLarr angegriffen haben. Das war nicht korrekt. Sie haben sich einfach vom Thema entfernt um, den Mensch zu dekreditieren.
    #23AuthorTobbyKim (849173) 29 Jan 12, 13:35
    #15: "Stricken off the list" provides [sic] 16,900,000 hits.

    #23: Es ist dein gutes Recht Millionen von Treffer als "ignorant statements" abzustempeln.

    FWIW, a Google search I just did (clicking right to the last page of hits) yielded 410 results worldwide:

    I'll write a longer post later (if I have time / this thread hasn't been closed / I can be bothered ...)
    #24AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 29 Jan 12, 14:02
    SuggestionStricken off
    I stumbled onto this thread by coincidence. After reading through, I'd say KinkyAfro and Lady Grey, there is nothing wrong in challenging suggestions with facts. As far as I understand, Frisky was not claiming to be an authority in this field. You were both too arrogant towards him. That is wrong. If you reject his suggestions with facts, that will be alright. The number of hits does not really matter as far as the person initiating the thread did not invent the word by himself. I think it is a matter of decorum here. I do not see anything to warrant calling Frisky's proficiency in English into question here.

    Generally, I will also tend towards rejecting "stricken off". This does not mean however that the expression is wrong. It simply means that it is unusual and not commonly used. Please lay this matter to rest and move on.
    #26AuthorFred-Moll (849281) 29 Jan 12, 17:25
    My two cents:

    'Stricken off' sounds unidiomatic to me (as a BE speaker), but there are indeed some Google hits for it (albeit much less than 'struck off'). It may be the case that 'stricken off' is used only in AE.


    "North American or archaic past participle of strike"
    #27AuthorSP (UK) (792698) 29 Jan 12, 17:57

    Most of the time the past participle of "strike" is "struck." The exceptions are that you can be stricken with guilt, a misfortune, a wound or a disease; and a passage in a document can be stricken out. The rest of the time, stick with "struck."

    "stricken", though common as a past particle in much legal writing, is considered by the better authorities to be inferior to struck. It is an 'ARCHAISM' in all but the adjectival sense*. Most modern uses of stricken occur as the ill-advised past particle, though.
    *a stricken community.

    ● "the court sustained the objection and ordered Stephens' answer stricken [read struck]."
    (Conn. Ct. App. 2011)
    p. 847

    Garner's Dictionary Of Legal Usage
    (3d ed., Oxford)
    #28Authorme1 (236101) 29 Jan 12, 20:01
    Suggestion#28 Very well done
    Thanks a lot mel. That was very well done
    #29AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 29 Jan 12, 20:27
    #26: I stumbled onto this thread by coincidence.


    #29: Thanks a lot mel. That was very well done

    The quote from Garner doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement of "stricken" to me. But perhaps other LEOs would care to comment (preferably AE ones / those who haven't contributed to this thread so far ...). At no point have I said that "stricken (off)" is "wrong" in all varieties of English.

    I'd also like to emphasize that I always try to write my posts in good faith and I trust that other users do the same ...
    #30AuthorKinkyAfro (587241) 29 Jan 12, 23:38
    Normalerweise widerspreche ich euch AE/BE Muttersprachler nicht. 1. Aber ich habe schon viele deutsche und englische Gesetzbuecher gelesen. 2. Werden Gerichtssendungen in den USA live ausgestrahlt.

    Mein schriftliches Englisch ist nicht 'perfekt', aber mein Hör-/Leseverständnis ist A+.

    1) v. to remove a statement from the record of the court proceedings by order of the judge due to impropriety of a question, answer or comment to which there has been an objection.Often after a judge has stricken some comment or testimony (an answer made before an objection has stopped the witness), he/she admonishes (warns) the jury not to consider the stricken language, but the jury has a hard time forgetting since "a bell once rung cannot be unrung."

    The People's Law Dictionary by Gerald and Kathleen Hill
    Gerald has practiced law for more than four decades in San Francisco's financial district and in the town of Sonoma, California. He has an A.B. from Stanford University and Juris Doctor from Hastings College of the Law of the University of California.
    So, ich ich klinke mich aus.
    #31Authorme1 (236101) 30 Jan 12, 03:21
    Suggestion#30 "Stricken/struck off the text", for example, sounds wrong...
    Your problem KinkyAfro is an attempt to play god on this issue. The unnecessary diversion from the issue to the focus on person was started by you. I never came here trying to get a "sounding endorsement of" anything. I only realized that this phrase exists and was not included in Leo and wanted to share it with others. Your attitude of seeking to comment on which expression sounded unusual and odd to your ears and even trying to discredit me as if I invented an unqualified word, was the starting point of your arrogance. That wasn't the best example of posting in good faith. You never indicated in any of your comments that the expression may be right in any way. You even stated outright that it "sounds wrong" and even went ahead to speculate on which language I am more at home using. In short, you turned your priority into ridiculing rather than addressing the issue. That is what I found truly pathetic about your actions. Even the author of Cambridge English Dictionary would probably have devoted time to verifying the correctness or otherwise, of the phrase in question and not go about ridiculing others as if he was the creator of the English language. That is why I am most indebted to a commentator here who drew your attention to the reality that you are dealing with a universal and no longer localized private language. All the same cheers and have a great day and I hope we all learn our lessons.
    #32AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 30 Jan 12, 10:51
    Hier der komplette OED-Eintrag zu dem Thema, unter "strike (v.): (Hervorhebung von mir)
    " 13.
    a. To cancel or expunge with or as with the stroke of a pen. Const. from, off, out (of), rarely †away; also (U.S.) without const., esp. in legal contexts, and colloq., in the imp., annulling or reversing what the speaker has just said. Also to strike (a name, a person) off or (now rarely) out of a list. Cf. to strike off, to strike out, to strike through at Phrasal verbs.
    The pa. pple. form stricken is common in the legal examples of this sense.
    to be struck off the rolls: see roll n.1 2b.
    c1386 Chaucer Friar's Tale 66 Thanne wolde he seye, freend, I shal for thy sake Do striken hire out of oure lettres blake.
    1549 J. Olde tr. Erasmus Paraphr. Eph. 6 Christ‥stroke away al the difference of circumcised, and not circumcised.
    a1616 Shakespeare All's Well that ends Well (1623) v. iii. 57 That thou didst loue her, strikes some scores away From the great compt.
    1746 H. Walpole Let. to H. Mann 15 Apr., Vernon is struck off the list of admirals.
    1794 A. Radcliffe Myst. of Udolpho IV. ix. 166 O! could I strike from my memory all former scenes.
    1829 Rep. Supreme Court Tennessee (1832) IX. 229 That an attorney may be stricken from the roll for good cause, none can doubt.
    1839 Thackeray Fatal Boots Jan., He has struck Thomas out of his will.
    1849 T. B. Macaulay Hist. Eng. II. vi. 36 His name was struck out of the list of privy councillors.
    1873 P. V. Smith Hist. Eng. Inst. iii. viii. 214 A person tried for his life might‥challenge and strike off the panel as many as thirty-five.
    1883 M. B. Betham-Edwards Disarmed ii, The first person who flouts her shall be struck off my visiting list.
    1891 Field 7 Nov. 701/3 [List of] Horses struck out of their engagements.
    1906 Federal Reporter (U.S.) (1907) 147 451 All of the testimony given by the witness‥is withdrawn and stricken out of this case.
    1915 Southwestern Reporter CLXXV. 661/1 No further steps‥were taken in the case until the February term, 1904, of the Magoffin circuit court, when it was stricken from the docket.
    1938 Congress. Rec. 24 May 7405/2 That the Committee do‥report the bill back to the House with the recommendation that the enacting clause be stricken out.
    1973 N.Y. Law Jrnl. 19 July 4/2 The Convention‥voted 132 to 49, to strike that section from the Constitution.
    1957 Reports Supreme Court Kansas (1958) CLXXXI. 623 In our opinion the reply was erroneously stricken.
    1965 Pacific Reporter CCCCIV. 230/2 Where‥a second clause appears which expresses a different intent and declares a life estate plus a remainder which is void under the rule, the qualifying clause will be stricken.
    1973 N.Y. Law Jrnl. 31 Aug. 19/2 Motion to strike the statement of readiness is granted.
    1978 N.Y. Times 29 Mar. b3/4 Over strong objections from the prosecutor, Sybil R. Moses, Judge William J. Arnold ordered the question stricken.
    1963 R. I. McDavid Mencken's Amer. Lang. xi. 754 In television we might note mark it and strike it, directions to stage hands to chalk out the position for scenery and then rub out the mark for the next set.
    1976 R. M. Stern Will i. ii. 17 Do you‥believe that the crash was not an accident? Strike that. We will look into it with an open mind.
    1977 H. Greene FSO-1 ii. 16, I don't give a damn what the congressman says. Strike that: I do give a damn.

    b. Phr. to strike (a medical practitioner, etc.) off the register : to remove (that person's name) from the register of qualified practitioners and thereby forbid him or her to practise. Usu. pass.
    1911 G. B. Shaw Doctor's Dilemma p. xciii, Execute the doctor, if necessary, as a doctor, by striking him off the register.
    1936 A. Christie Cards on Table xvi. 157, I heard him say he'd get Dr. Roberts struck off the—Medical Register, would it be?
    1951 ‘E. Crispin’ Long Divorce xvi. 199 We can and shall get him struck off the register."

    Ich denke trotzdem, dass der LEO-Eintrag ausreicht, aus dem in #20 genannten Grund - die Bedeutung ändert sich ja durch die ungewöhnliche Partizipform nicht.
    #33AuthorLady Grey (235863) 30 Jan 12, 10:57
    Suggestion#33 Was war denn euer Problem?
    "The pa. pple. form stricken is common in the legal examples of this sense."

    Wenn das so stimmt und der Vorschlag von Frisky nicht aus der Luft gegriffen war, warum hast du und Kinky ihn so persönlich angegriffen? Besonders an dich gerichtet: wo hast du irgendwas gesehen, dass der Mensch sich verbogen und in einer Sprache geschrieben hat, in der er sich nicht sicher gefühlt hat? Jetzt scheinst du dich zu widersprechen und ihn zu bestätigen. Nach dem was du geschrieben hast reichen die Leo-Einträge eigentlich nicht aus, denn es fehlt noch etwas.

    Warum hast du diese Kommentar nicht früher geschrieben, wenn du es wußstest? Fazit: Diese Arroganz des Wissens war nicht angebracht. An Eure Stelle würde ich mich beim Frisky entschuldigen.
    #34AuthorTobbyKim (849173) 30 Jan 12, 16:09
    #33 well I am sure we are grief-stricken, but won't get struck off by LEO

    An Eurer Stelle würde ich mich beim Frisky entschuldigen. is this really a place for sermons?

    I am certain we are all free to express opinions and people are free to accept or reject suggestions. vehemence is usually just an expression of degree of conviction. n.b. It is not unusual for people to look for confirmation of peculiar ideas.

    #35Authornoli (489500) 30 Jan 12, 16:18
    Suggestion#35 Vehemence and defamation
    @noli: You are quite right. Vehemence is acceptable as long as it doesn't breach the integrity of a fellow man or call it into question unjustifiably. I agree with TobbyKim. KinkyAfro and Lady Grey went slightly beyond "vehemence" in this case because I personally, do not see anything wrong in the English I have read from FriskyLarr so far, both grammatically and semantically.
    #36AuthorFred-Moll (849281) 30 Jan 12, 16:41
    For the record, the English of Frisky / Tobby / Fred is similarly flawed, as is that person's complete failure to give evidence for his or her point of view, or even to state it clearly in the opening post.

    The many comments here from native speakers are evidence of usage; they show that 'stricken' is at best uncommon.

    The dictionary evidence in #27, #28, #31, and #33 was helpful in clarifying that the variant participle is used primarily in legal contexts in AE.

    Even in that limited context, the best-known writer on legal usage (Bryan Garner, #28b, as distinct from Paul Brians, #28a) specifically recommends not using 'stricken.'

    All that would have been much easier to find out if the opening poster had done the normal background research instead of deliberately sowing discord and confusion in the forum.
    #37Authorhm -- us (236141) 30 Jan 12, 17:44
    Suggestion#37 Personal view!
    hm I would have gladly agreed with you if you were an undisputable authority in the language. It doesn't matter where you come from. I challenge your authority to declare any quality as flawed. Moreover, I did not deliberately sow discord and confusion in the forum. You should direct your anger at those who gave the debate a different taste by turning personal. I was glad to read your hints of doing some background research before coming on here and was thankful for that. The suggested word was not my invention and that is the bottom line in the debate.
    #38AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 30 Jan 12, 17:57
    @FriskyLarr: If there is any authority for the English language in this forum, then it is hm--us. A native speaker, and a keen observer of language development. It behooves you to restrain your language in that respect, especially since you are a LEO-youngster.
    #39AuthorWerner (236488) 30 Jan 12, 18:01
    Suggestion#39 Werner
    Thanks a lot Werner. Being an authority in your forum does not confer on anyone the right to pass damning judgment on others without restraint. Restraint is something I guess everyone needs in this debate. Moreover, it should take far more than your declaration or anyone else's to make someone such an authority that you claim hm is. This is my last comment on this thread. Cheers!
    #40AuthorFriskyLarr (830360) 30 Jan 12, 18:10
    This is my last comment on this thread Thank goodness for that.
    #41AuthorDragon (238202) 30 Jan 12, 18:14
    I am still looking for the "damning judgment" being meted out ...
    #42AuthorB.L.Z. Bubb (601295) 30 Jan 12, 18:14
    I'd go along with KinkyAfro and Lady Grey, who both always write flawless English. I (another native speaker) had never heard the expression "stricken off the list" either, and I think FriskyLarr was being rather stubborn early on in this thread before it evolved into an all-out brawl.

    Edith has pointed out to me that Lady Grey writes in German - sorry! (Not the first time I've made that mistake...)
    #43AuthorStravinsky (637051) 30 Jan 12, 21:31
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