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  • Subject

    Vielvölkerreich

    [pol.][noun][noun]
    Sources
    Rußland als Vielvölkerreich. Entstehung - Geschichte - Zerfall
    Comment
    multiethnic empire?
    Author pfarrer83919 (292595) 09 Sep 13, 05:18
    Comment
    or multinational, which I wouldd prefer
    #1Author dude (253248) 09 Sep 13, 05:36
    Sources
    Nationality and ethnicity are different. Depends on context. Moldovans and Romanians are ethnically the same, but different in nationality. Walloons and Flemings are nationally the same, but different in ethnicity.
    #2AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 05:53
    Comment
    Context is given: Russia. Hence my preference.
    #3Author dude (253248) 09 Sep 13, 05:57
    Sources
    Russia has historically used "nationality" in a way that would mean "ethnicity" in most English-speaking countries. "Jewish" was a nationality.
    #4AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 05:59
    Comment
    Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Kazakhstan, etc. Those are nations within the Russian empire, even through the Soviet era. Russia today may not have those anymore, but there are still some nations/nationalities left within the modern federation.

    P.S.: Jewish was a nationality (in Russia) - I've never heard of that. Do you have some sources?
    #5Author dude (253248) 09 Sep 13, 06:04
    Sources
    I'm glad you agree with me.

    There are plenty of US Federal and Supreme Court decisions where Irish, Finnish, African and the like are identified as "races." you have to be careful of context and time period. The famous Dred Scott decision ruled that members of the Negro race were not (and could not be) US citizens. Terminology counts. Around 1908 it was litigated in the US whether Finns were members of the white race.

    Race, ethnicity, nationality, citizen, subject, etc., mean different things at different times and in different places.
    #6AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 06:14
    Sources
    My grandmother's passport.
    #7AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 06:17
    Comment
    We're not talking about the US and slavery or race relations here.
    #8Author dude (253248) 09 Sep 13, 06:17
    Sources
    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/23494/...

    The Soviet Union officially recognizes Jews as a nationality. In the personal identification papers which all Soviet citizens carry (the internal "passport"), Jews must list their nationality as "Jewish" (Yevrei) just as other nationalities-such as Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians and others-must list theirs.

    #9AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 06:19
    Sources
    Sorry -- can't cut and paste the text:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=52Ew77pZsNUC...
    #10AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 06:28
    Sources
    #11AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 06:31
    Sources
    The rest is left as an exercise for the student.
    #12AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 06:35
    Comment
    Re your grandma: are you talking post-1948? After Israel had become a nation? That would make sense to me as Israel is primarily a Jewish nation.
    #13Author dude (253248) 09 Sep 13, 06:35
    Sources
    She was around 60 years old when Israel was founded.
    #14AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 06:44
    Comment
    How old is this passport you're talking about?

    Edit: so that makes you about 65 to 75 years old?
    #15Author dude (253248) 09 Sep 13, 06:48
    Sources
    We have long generations in my family. My mother was 35 when I was born, her mother was 35, her father older. On my father's side, my great grandfather was 75 when my grandmother was born. My age is my own business.
    #16AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 06:55
    Comment
    Hey, I'm not prying, but when you volunteer that your grandmother was born in 1888 (more or less), I have to wonder. :-)
    #17Author dude (253248) 09 Sep 13, 06:59
    Sources
    If you're not prying, then let's drop the subject of my age. It's not relevant to the question of whether Jews were considered a nationality in Russia or the Soviet Union. See links above.
    #18AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 07:08
    Comment
    I think "multi-ethnic empire" or "multinational empire" both work, but the phrases both sound much less concise than Vielvölkerreich, and since this seems to be a title, that'd important. But since it's the the USSR you're referring to, could you say "Multiethnic State" (Or multinational), or is the "empire" meaning of Reich necessary?

    Btw, the Wikipedia article for "Vielvölkerstaat" is called "Multinational state" in English, and anything like "multiethnic state" redirects to "multinational state", indicating that they're equivalent.

    Also, Jews were certainly considered a nationality (national'nost') in the USSR. They even had an autonomous region, though I don't think many Jews ever actually lived there.
    #19AuthorMercury3 (877930) 09 Sep 13, 07:25
    Comment
    I think there's a difference: most nations are multiethnic: Germany has Bavarians, Hessians, Swabians, etc. The US certainly is a multiethnic nation, but I don't think it's multinational. Russia, on the other hand, is and has been throughout most of its history.
    #20Author dude (253248) 09 Sep 13, 07:36
    Sources
    Now we agree.
    #21AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 07:39
    Comment
    I said Russia was multinational from the beginning; you're the one who was defending multiethnic. Remember?

    Edit: forget it, I'm going to sleep.
    #22Author dude (253248) 09 Sep 13, 07:44
    Comment
    And you knew that without knowing that Jews were a nationality. Amazing. You hit it out of the park.
    #23AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 07:59
    Sources
    Tatars are also a nationality, but one without a nation. Ethnicity would work better.
    #24AuthorRobNYNY (242013) 09 Sep 13, 08:37
    Comment
    Zu #24:

    "Tatars are also a nationality, but one without a nation."
    Dass sehen aber die Tataren anders: die haben sogar ihren eigenen Staat.

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan
    #25Author MiMo (236780) 09 Sep 13, 09:54
     
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