Left and right, left wing, right wing

"Left-wing politics are political positions or activities that accept or support social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

"Right-wing politics are political positions or activities that view some forms of social stratification or social inequality as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, typically defending this position on the basis of natural law, economics or tradition."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

Thank you a lot

For AE (not sure about BE) you could also use "liberal" and "conservative." Or "left/right-leaning."

Auf Deutsch üblich ist politisch links / rechts, wobei politisch auch wegfallen kann, wenn klar ist, worum es geht.

I strongly advise against using the nebulous term "liberal" to express left-leaning political values, in any form of English.

And why would that be, Pipper?

Dude's referring to a definition of "liberal" which is narrower than in BE I'd say; at least that's my impression gathered from American media.

Because, dude, it is an inexact, frequently misused term (in the US at least) and neither Oskar Lafontaine nor Karl Marx can be accurately described as "liberal".

and you specialize in AE usage, I take it? In my (daily) experience of AE, left and right-wing tend to be extremes, such as communists or neo-Nazis. Unless the OP's context asks for that, I'd say you're wrong in your assessment of US political terms. But who knows, maybe other AE speakers will rush to your side.

Adding to my #8, I have noticed that in US media "liberal" is used where "left-wing" would be the preferred term in BE - again just my impression from occasionally reading the International Herald Tribune and International New York Times e.g.

Neo-liberal?
Economically liberal?
Socially liberal?
...liberal?

Which one of these pertains to Lafontaine or Marx, two famous communists and/or socialists who would be seen as extremely left-wing in the US, especially by the pundits who throw around the word "liberal" without knowing what it means?

You really shouldn't stick your neck out so far, dude. It's like you feel you have something to prove ;-)

I don't think I'm sticking my neck out at all, and I certainly have nothing to prove. I am merely giving you my opinion re AE usage as a non-native (as you yourself have pointed out repeatedly). It's you who seems to have a hard-on for me, for reasons that escape me.

If by "hard-on" you mean I reply to threads that you have also posted in, then it's difficult not to at the rate you provide input in these forums. Nice deflection, though. Shall we get back to those well-known liberals Marx and Lafontaine, or leave it at that?

No, Pipper, I'm referring to your witty remarks, like this one: "It's OK, you're not a native speaker of English and shouldn't try to be."

As far as Lafontaine is concerned, he's been variously described by US media both as "liberal" and "left-wing," presumably depending on the media outlet's political slant, whereas Marx would probably be history's very first Marxist (although some AE speakers have been known to get Karl confused with Groucho).

Edit: I have never hidden the fact that I am not a native AE speaker. All anyone has to do to find that out is to look at my profile.

I agree with dude and disagree with Pipper. 'Liberal' in the US means (mildly) left-wing, socially and politically. That is a difference in usage from German, the rest of Europe, European history, and to some extent academia, where it means economically laissez-faire, which in the US is called 'conservative.'

Of course the whole US spectrum is farther to the right than the political spectrum in western Europe, and there may not actually be much in the US that Europeans would recognize as genuinely left-wing. That partly explains the difference in usage.

Europeans don't have to adopt that usage themselves if they find it misleading or confusing -- they can use the perfectly good options in #1 above. But they should be aware that the difference exists when reading US sources or writing for US audiences. Just complaining about the difference isn't helpful.

Just complaining about the existence of the difference isn't helpful. - Nicely put, hm. :-)

Yes, and Dude and hm have also confirmed my impression mentioned above. :-)

LOL I love how everyone is getting irritated that a native English speaker is attempting to be precise. Usually it's the other way around. :-)

It is true that "liberal" almost always equates to "leftist," but IMO the old use of "liberal" is indeed making a comeback in the US. Another way to express this is "classical liberal." This is due largely to our broken political system, in which the authoritarian / libertarian divide is becoming increasingly important compared to the left / right divide.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/charles-koch--y...

The word "liberal" in its current conventional sense is used as a curse word by the right. Leftists avoid it. They prefer "progressive" now.

While I'm not prepared to advise international translators to default to BE usage in every case, this is a case where the US terminology is not used elsewhere and would be misunderstood. (Those of us who know what a classic liberal is don't like it much here either.)

I agree. "Liberal" is a tricky word.

One of the most conservative and/or "right-wing" (depending on one's own stance) radio talk show hosts, Rush Limbaugh, often refers to the "bleeding heart liberals."

'Liberal' in the US means (mildly) left-wing, socially and politically.

"Politically" left-wing? I'm sorry, you've lost me in a haze of tautology.

Of course the whole US spectrum is farther to the right than the political spectrum in western Europe, and there may not actually be much in the US that Europeans would recognize as genuinely left-wing. That partly explains the difference in usage.

It has to do with the fact that the political system in the US is so binary, and the public political discourse so simplistic, that you only have "liberal" and "conservative" to work with, although I doubt American political scientists are this lazy. Woolly terms such as "liberal" to describe characters as complicated as Marx and Lafontaine have no place in the context of international politics, which is what this is.

Sorry, I had forgotten that Lafontaine and Marx were examples from the original poster, not a later stage in the discussion. I'm not familiar with Lafontaine's politics in detail, but in general, I agree that it's better to call European leftists left-wing. Or indeed, just socialist or communist, where applicable.

Nevertheless, I still think it can be useful for German speakers to be aware that the everyday US sense of 'liberal' does roughly overlap with the European center left at least as far as, say, the social democrats. My sense of the original poster's question was that it was fairly binary, since it only mentioned left and right in broad terms. I don't think we know whether Sarrois was thinking of politics in an internationally complicated way or just at the simple level of general conversation.

This isn't merely an AE/BE difference. The Liberal Party in Australia is centre-right; the liberal wing of the British Liberal Democrats (they merged with the Social Democrats in 1981) is centre/centre-right and the Canadian Liberals are centrist. The German FDP are "die Liberalen", so any translation from German into English of "linkspolitisch" as "liberal" would cause even more confusion.

An important conclusion to be drawn from this thread is that "liberal" is a loaded term in the US, apparently constantly subject to changes in meaning thanks to the way it's used.

I understand that you have to be right at any cost, Pipper, and that's fine. It's no skin off my nose. However, one of your examples (and I have neither the inclination nor the time to go through all of them; maybe later), the Canadian Liberal Party has agendas (in particular universal health care and making same-sex marriage legal nationwide) that would be considered extremely left-wing in the US (and in a lot of other countries):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_o...
The Liberals' signature policies and legislative decisions include universal health care, the Canada Pension Plan, Canada Student Loans, peacekeeping, multilateralism, official bilingualism, official multiculturalism, patriating the Canadian constitution and the entrenchment of Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Clarity Act, restoring balanced budgets in the 1990s, and making same-sex marriage legal nationwide.

Edit: in fact, now that I think about it, most Americans consider Canadians and their country in general to be very left-of-center or liberal - in the US sense - or even "bleeding-heart liberals." That's also where the draft dodgers and pacifists would go during the Vietnam era. :-)

Liberal Party of Canada
Parti libéral du Canada
Active federal party
Leader Justin Trudeau
[...]
Ideology Liberalism (Canadian)
Political position Centre to Centre-left
International affiliation Liberal International

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_o...

Liberal International (LI) is a political international federation for liberal political parties.

Its headquarters is located at 1 Whitehall Place, London, SW1A 2HD within the National Liberal Club. It was founded in Oxford in 1947, and has become the pre-eminent network for liberal parties and for the strengthening of liberalism around the world. The Oxford Manifesto describes the basic political principles of the Liberal International.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Interna...

Not one of the 62 full-time party members is from the US, nor any of the 24 observer parties. They do, however, represent each of the five continents. Again, evidence that colloquial American English use of the term "liberal" is a global anomaly and should not be put forward as a translation for "linkspolitisch" in any serious text.

This isn't about being right or wrong; it's about correcting misinformation which is wilfully and/or ignorantly being spread. Some people seem to use the LEO forums as gospel in questions of translation, and you're not doing them any favours.

I think we can rely on Dude's familiarity with US political terminology. While "liberal" may also have in in the US a fairly wide range of connotations, my impression is that in most cases (confirmed also by hm) it would seem to correspond with "left-wing" in BE usage.

#28: Again, it's not a matter of AE vs BE usage (no matter how much dude wishes it was); it's a matter of colloquial AE usage versus how everyone else in the world uses the term.

That's like saying the US should get rid of gallons, miles, inches and ounces just because the rest of the world subscribes to the metric system. Wishful thinking perhaps, but not reality. Several futile attempts have been made to "convert" Americans just over the years that I've been here, and I seriously doubt that I will live to see that change. Maybe my grandchildren will. The same probably goes for the AE use of "liberal," no matter how vehemently you protest, Pipper.

OT re #30: That's like saying the US should get rid of gallons, miles, inches and ounces just because the rest of the world subscribes to the metric system.

We haven't quite got rid of those yet either, dude! :-)

Again, it's not a matter of AE vs BE usage (no matter how much dude wishes it was);


I think it is; try reading the international editions of US newspapers for example, but that probably won't change your mind.

#30: No-one is asking Americans to stop using liberal to mean left-wing, but even native speakers of AE in this thread say its meaning is changing, so maybe you're doing it all by yourselves.

For the purposes of clarity: The AE usage of "liberal" should not be considered for a translation of "linkspolitisch" in an international context.

I think you're taking this way too personal.

Personally

This is a language forum where people come to learn about other languages. Please don't handicap them any more than you need to.

Parse this, Pipper: I don't know what your beef is with me, but you're cordially invited to kiss my grits. :-)