• Betreff

    Toilette (hier: NICHT Klo!)

    Wie kann ich den Titel des Bellini-Bildes YOUNG WOMAN AT HER TOILETTE (https://www.khm.at/nocache/en/search/?id=2546... ) in gesprochenem Englisch ggü. Menschen, die nicht unbedingt Kunstexperten ersten Ranges sind, an- bzw. aussprechen, ohne für ungewollte Heiterkeit oder gar Peinlichkeit zu sorgen? Hilft u. U. eine dem Französischen angenäherte Aussprache von Toilette - oder macht das alles nur schlimmer?
    Verfasserlate bird (666148) 17 Jul. 17, 16:56
    Young woman in front of the mirror

    Seems to be the title
    #1Verfasserdude (253248) 17 Jul. 17, 16:59
    Vielleicht hilft die Definition von Collins:
    Toilette definition: the process of grooming and dressing oneself
    #2Verfasserwienergriessler (925617) 17 Jul. 17, 16:59
    Are these non-experts native speakers? If so, they are likely to be familiar with the French pronunciation through perfume adverts (eau de toilette).
    In other words, don't worry about it :-)
    #3Verfassercovellite (520987) 17 Jul. 17, 17:04
    Solange Du nicht aus lauter Nervosität, die könnten "toilette" lustig finden, aus Versehen "young woman on the bog" sagst ;-)
    #4VerfasserB.L.Z. Bubb (601295) 17 Jul. 17, 17:05
    DANKE, dude und wienergriessler!
    Aber: Das Kunsthistorische Museum verwendet durchgehend (sowohl als Untertitel im betreffenden Saal wie in den Katalogen) Young Woman at her Toilette.
    Und die Collins-Definition hülfe nur, wenn ich sie allen (peinlich berührt oder sonstwie) Kichernden unter die Nase hielte - das wäre aber zu spät, ich will ja solchen Situationen zuvorkommen...
    #5Verfasserlate bird (666148) 17 Jul. 17, 17:07
    Oxford bietet die "französische" Aussprache (zum Anhören im Link) :

        The process of washing oneself, dressing, and attending to one's appearance.
        ‘Emily got up to begin her morning toilette’
    toilette /twɑːˈlɛt/
    #6Verfasserno me bré (700807) 17 Jul. 17, 17:30
    DANKE; ich werde halt nach Kräften französisch artikulieren & intonieren...
    #7Verfasserlate bird (666148) 17 Jul. 17, 17:35
    In US English, the word is spelled toilet (not toilette) and is not pronounced after the French fashion. Similarly, the OED has only toilet as a key word (the form toilette is discussed under that heading).

    It is true that toilet is no longer used much for anything other than a bathroom fixture, but the term has numerous uses beyond that and those who find it embarrassing need remedial education and also to mature beyond adolescence.
    #8VerfasserBob C. (254583) 17 Jul. 17, 17:46
    Not only US English uses "toilet" in this sense, but also BE; in the article on Giov. Bellini in the online version of the (formerly) Grove Dictionary of Art, for instance, now part of Oxford Art Online, the painting is expressly referred to as "Woman (?Venus) at her Toilet (1515; Vienna, Ksthist. Mus.)." As Bob C. points out, the French pronunciation, even in this sense and spelling, is generally ignored ...
    #9VerfasserBion (1092007) 17 Jul. 17, 17:59
    Late Bird, it would help us help you if you would explain for fully the circumstances where you are using the English title. (Are you, for example, a tour guide or docent at the Museum? Are you recording an audio file to be played for museum visitors? Are you a teacher in an art history class?)
    #10VerfasserMartin--cal (272273) 17 Jul. 17, 18:06
    the word should be no more embarrassing in this sense than, say, "toiletry," and "toiletry articles"
    #11VerfasserBion (1092007) 17 Jul. 17, 18:09
    #8: It is true that toilet is no longer used much for anything other than a bathroom fixture ...
    That, of course, is not the case for BE, where it is still a normal word for the room or building containing such fixtures.

    #12VerfasserSpike BE (535528) 17 Jul. 17, 18:43
    Well, yes, here, too, the word also refers to the room where the fixture is located, though in North America it is most common to say one is going to the bathroom or the rest room or wants to use the "facilities."
    #13VerfasserBob C. (254583) 17 Jul. 17, 20:31
    Hilft u. U. eine dem Französischen angenäherte Aussprache von Toilette
    It not only helps, it's the only way to pronounce "toilette" in BE. The pronunciation and usual meaning (in BE) is as stated in #6.
    @late bird: I think you underestimate your audience. One doesn't need to be a "Kunstexpert ersten Ranges" to understand (and not giggle at) "toilette" as used in the title of this painting. Speaking purely from a BE perspective though...
    #14VerfasserAnne(gb) (236994) 17 Jul. 17, 21:05
    In the context of a 19th-century painting of a woman at her dressing table, you can say either 'at her toilet' or 'at her toilette' in English. If you're concerned that a naive audience will snicker at the former (and they probably would), my suggestion would be just to use the latter, i.e., the French spelling (and pronunciation).

    That is, I agree with Anne, if I understand her point.
    #15Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 17 Jul. 17, 23:27
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