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    English missing

    place a combination in a sentence pattern

    Subject

    place a combination in a sentence pattern

    Sources

    In the guidelines of the Oxford Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs there is the following para at the beginning of the chapter Grammatical codes and tables


    Verbs and particles/prepositions are elements in the structure of sentences. They are preceded, interrupted and followed by other elements - Subject, Direct Object, prepositional object, and so on - which may not themselves form part of the phrasal verb or longer idiom. As we show with reference to the particle/preposition contrast itself (cue to a paragraph in the guidelines) important differences of function cannot be made clear except by placing a combination in the sentence pattern (or patterns) in which it is regularly used. Again, we cannot indicate the 'transformational' possibilities of such verbs as bring up (children), try out (a machine), fill in (an application), etc except by reference to the wider pattern. It is for these reason that each entry recorded in the dictionary is described in terms of the sentence pattern (or Patterns ) in which it normally appears.

    These patterns ( And their transformations ) are not fully described in the entries themselves. Instead, we make use of a small set of appriviations which for each entry make up a grammatical code.


    Note: The grammatical codes look like [Vp], [Vn.p], [Vpr], [Vn.pr] and so on, which means V = verb, n= noun, p = particle, pr = prepositon and so on.


    Comment

    I read place a combination in the sentence pattern .....to mean the clause elements should be represented/presented or put in a grammatical code shown above that represents the sentence pattern. In this contexrepresent/present something in a pattern or put something in a pattern could be synonyms I guess.

    What does place a combination in a sentence pattern mean in this context ? Is there a synonym for place sth. in sth. in the meaning of this context ?

    May be there is a German word covering its meaning as well.

    Any help is much appreciate.:)

    .

    Authormegatipp (908281)  06 Jun 20, 11:50
    Comment

    Sigh. Heady stuff. Just to get the ball rolling:

    I take “combination” to mean the phrasal verb (which by definition consists of more than one word, hence “combination”) and “sentence pattern” to mean the syntactical structure in which it is generally used.

    Worded differently: “You can’t learn how to use a phrasal verb out of context.” That’s my take on it, at any rate.

    #1Authorredcranes (766941) 06 Jun 20, 20:02
    Comment

    Thank you very much.

    Agree. My major problem, though, is the meaning of the verb place sth. in sth. here. What is meant by place a something in a sentence pattern / syntactical structure. The real problem is the meaning of place something in something (relating to this context) rather than the grammatical sense. It will actually have a grammatical sense here, but It will have other senses in other contexts .

    #2Authormegatipp (908281)  07 Jun 20, 12:28
    Comment

    Sag doch mal auf Deutsch, was du meinst.

    #3Authorpenguin (236245) 07 Jun 20, 12:42
    Comment

    Thank you very much.

    I have found the following sentence in the Pons Wörterbuch für Schule und Studium:


    They placed the painting in the Renaissance => sie ordneten das Bild der Renaissance zu


    Hence in German place sth. in sth. has the meaning of etwas (Akk..) etwas (Dativ) zuordnen in this context. However, I don't know if this is the correct meaning in English relating to the OP..

    Thanks again.


    #4Authormegatipp (908281)  07 Jun 20, 13:31
    Comment

    Nein, hier bedeutet das nicht "zuordnen", wie redcranes (meiner Ansicht nach völlig richtig) erklärt hat.


    Hier bedeutet es "in einen Zusammenhang setzen" oder "im Kontext abbilden".

    Man könnte auch von Anwendungsbeispielen sprechen.


    megatipp, es wäre hilfreich, wenn du dein Sprachprofil (Muttersprache / Fremdsprachen) ausfüllen könntest. Danke.

    #5Authorpenguin (236245)  07 Jun 20, 13:37
    Comment

    Be cautious. I took redcrane's lasr sentence to mean what you say with im Kontext abbilden (what ever that means). But if you say in einen Zusammenhang setzen there is a relation to the German word zuordnen. And that's why I prefer an English reply to this problem, pardon me.


    #6Authormegatipp (908281)  07 Jun 20, 14:30
    Comment
    Ich würde das „placing“ hier sogar einfach mit „platzieren“ übersetzen Es geht doch schlichtweg darum, dass viele Verben häufig in einer bestimmten Kollokation genutzt werden und das Lexikon daher diese Wörter zusammen mit diesen Kollokationen listet, d.h.es platziert die Wörter in die häufigste Satzstruktur. Erkennt man gut an den Beispielen danach: es gibt das Wort „to bring up“, aber das kommt eben meisten vor als „to bring up children“, so dass das Lexikon eben diese Kollokation listet.
    #7AuthorQual der Wal (877524) 07 Jun 20, 14:48
    Comment

    And that's why I prefer an English reply to this problem, pardon me.


    You asked for a translation, so I just assumed your German was up to scratch.

    "im Kontext abbilden" means "show in context", i.e. in a full sentence or usual collocation.


    I would still like to know what your mother tongue is.

    #8Authorpenguin (236245)  07 Jun 20, 14:54
    Comment

    I would still like to know what your mother tongue is.

    +1, um die Anfrage besser einschätzen zu können.

    Ich sehe es im Übrigen ähnlich "einfach" wie #7.

    #9Authorwienergriessler (925617) 07 Jun 20, 15:42
    Comment

    I think you always overlook these sentences:

    It is for these reason that each entry recorded in the dictionary is described in terms of the sentence pattern (or patterns ) in which it normally appears.These patterns ( and their transformations ) are not fully described in the entries themselves. Instead, we make use of a small set of abbreviations which for each entry make up a grammatical code.


    Note: And the codes are [Vp], [Vn.p], [Vpr], [Vn.pr] and so on given in the OP.


    Here is an entry of bring up, recorded in the dictionary:


    bring up [Vn <=> p pass adj] raise, rear, educate(sb) S:parent, foster-parent, grandmother, nurse. O:child, family. A: properly, in style; single-handed, in poverty: The nurse, suffering from conscience, adopted Prissie and brought her up....... (other example sentences follow)


    p means particle (see OP)

    pass means passiv, it's possible to use the passive voice

    S means subject

    O means object

    <=> means particle and nomen can be interchanged


    With this I would like to point out the symbolic marks [Vp], [Vn.p], [Vn. pr] and so on given in the OP.


    It's only a small part of the meanings recorded, though!






    #10Authormegatipp (908281)  07 Jun 20, 15:43
    Comment
    Dann verstehe ich die Frage nicht. Was ist jetzt genau das Problem? Ja wohl nicht die Übersetzung von „placing“, oder?
    #11AuthorQual der Wal (877524)  07 Jun 20, 16:53
    Comment

    Sorry, I must say, I still don't get your point. Do you want to know


    a) the German translation of place a combination in a sentence pattern?

                pengiun already answered this.


    b) the meaning of placing a combination in the sentence pattern?

                recranes already explained this. 


    c) examples of different meanings of to bring up?

                LEO gives you a list  Dictionary: bring up


    d) how to enhance the OED entries?

                Please get into contact with OED


    e) the German words for the grammar elements you named?

                Please check LEO, e.g. noun  Dictionary: noun


    f) or?


    To know you mother tongue might help us understand your problem. Could you, please, let us know?

    #12Authorjust me (305888)  07 Jun 20, 17:15
    Comment

    Evtl. ist die Fragestellung auch zugespitzt auf ein speziell linguistisches Problem

    (was ich im vorigen Jahrtausend als generative Transformationsgrammatik kennen lernen musste...). Vielleicht kann uns megatipp ja diese Fragen erklären.

    #13Authorwienergriessler (925617) 07 Jun 20, 17:35
    Comment

    Ok, in this case the question is "how to represent phrasal verbs in terms of Chomsky's transformational grammar"?


    Then I'm out, might have known ages ago :-((

    #14Authorjust me (305888) 07 Jun 20, 17:57
    Comment

    Ha ha ...! You are laughing at me (#12,#13, #14).Ok ! Those ones should not participate in this thread anymore. I say them good bye, forever.

    ( As to my mother tongue in this case it's up to me to decide what I have to do and I need not to clarify the reasons.)

    #15Authormegatipp (908281)  07 Jun 20, 19:53
    Comment

    Du hast es nicht verstanden und/oder willst es nicht verstehen. - Die Beiträge waren ernst gemeint.


    P.S.

    I need not to clarify the reasons is grammatically questionable.

    #16Authorwienergriessler (925617)  07 Jun 20, 19:56
    Comment

    Good bye wienergriessler, I don't want to hear any apology. And that's that !

    (As to the need not question: need not => don't need )

    #17Authormegatipp (908281)  07 Jun 20, 20:10
    Comment

    re #4;


    They placed the painting in the Renaissance => sie ordneten das Bild der Renaissance zu


    Hence in German place sth. in sth. has the meaning of etwas (Akk..) etwas (Dativ) zuordnen in this context. However, I don't know if this is the correct meaning in English relating to the OP.


    I think the answer to that question, at least, is no.

    #18Authorbishop_j (877745) 07 Jun 20, 21:32
    Comment

    re #18

    I think the answer to that question, at least, is no.


    May be arrange or put works as a synonym :

    ..... differences of function cannot be made clear except by arranging / putting a combination in the pattern (or patterns) in which it is regularly used.


    and the symbolic grammatical codes like [Vp], [Vn.p]... and so on reflect the sentence patterns.

    #19Authormegatipp (908281)  08 Jun 20, 00:15
    Comment

    A few tips for you, megatipp:


    LEO isn't Facebook. You can't block people. Once you create a post, it is for public consumption, and, within the rules of LEO, people can respond as they wish.


    Since you seem to be very proud of your English skills, here are a few hints regarding English to help you improve. "Maybe" is one word. There is no space between the last letter of a sentence or phrase and the closing punctuation, including an exclamation point and a closing (or opening) parenthesis. "I say them good bye, forever." is not English.


    The request for you to indicate your native language is not some nosy question. It's obvious that you are not an NES. Knowing a person's native language helps understand what the source of their difficulties or questions may be. (There are a number of regular users here who are neither NGSs nor NESs, and once they indicated their language skills, it helped people understand the nature of their questions, which are often poorly worded.) You, obviously, seem to take pride in withholding that information, which will be to your disadvantage.


    For the most part, people treat each other here with a certain degree of respect (which doesn't mean that they always pussyfoot around with each other, however). Your rudeness and recalcitrance in this thread does not bode well for a great deal of assistance to be forthcoming. I know that I won't even attempt to answer one of your questions concerning which I may have been able to provide a small amount of assistance/clarificaition.



    #20Authorhbberlin (420040) 08 Jun 20, 10:37
    Comment

    May be arrange or put works as a synonym


    I don't see a problem with "place." I think you may be overthinking this. The 'combinations' here are combinations of words, since phrasal verbs use more than one word. Those combinations of words are being placed, or put, or what have you, into sentences, because where else would they go. The symbols give some information as to the ways of doing that that are considered correct for the particular phrasal verb. But ultimately they are just talking about putting words into sentences.


    [edit:] With regard to "sentence pattern," the dictionary obviously can't list all of the potentially infinite correctly formulated sentences containing a particular phrasal verb. So the symbols are an attempt to present a generalized schema of the correct usages. But that doesn't really affect what is a pretty straightforward, ordinary use of (the phrasal verb, as it happens) "place in."


    [edit: maybe it's not really a phrasal verb]

    #21Authorbishop_j (877745)  08 Jun 20, 15:46
    Comment

    The paragraph you quote makes two points:

    1. Important differences of function cannot be made clear except by placing a combination in the sentence pattern (or patterns) in which it is regularly used.
    2. For this reason, each entry recorded in the dictionary is described in terms of the sentence pattern (or patterns ) in which it normally appears.


    The first point means that you can only understand how a phrasal verb is being used when you see it placed (=put/written/located/situated) in its position in a sentence.

    The second point does not mean that the book also places the combination in a sentence pattern; instead, the book simply describes what patterns fit.


    Why so coy about your native tongue here but not on the other forum?

    #22AuthorCM2DD (236324) 08 Jun 20, 17:00
    Comment

    @ bishop_j and CM2DD


    Great Help, great replies ! Thank you very much indeed ! This makes things clearer.

    A friend in need is a friend indeed ! I'll always remember this saying relating to this thread and - what is more important, - to you.

    ( Additionally, I must say 'O Captain ! My Captain !'. And each one participating in this thread will find her or his role in this D...P....Society and ...-... there is also one user in our thread who, obviously, seems to take pride in playing the part of Mr.Gale Nolan, the headmaster of the Welton Academy ).

    ( Please have a look at those two video clips: )

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxWBTQ68WP0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lj185DaZ_o


    #23Authormegatipp (908281)  09 Jun 20, 17:03
     
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