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    English missing

    Flegeljahre - Backfischjahre

    Subject

    Flegeljahre - Backfischjahre

    Sources

    "Solche Mädchen haben dann keine Backfischjahre, sondern richtige Flegeljahre, sie klettern auf Bäume, stehlen Äpfel usw."

    (unveröffentlichte Mitschrift einer Vorlesung in den 1930er Jahren)

    Comment

    Im Sinne von: ausgesprochen "weiblich" vs. ausgesprochen "männlich", entsprechend dem Rollenklischee der damaligen Zeit, was auch in der Übersetzung rüberkommen soll.

    Author Ferenczi (237228) 03 Jul 20, 17:37
    Comment

    For Flegeljahre, possibly:

    awkward age, or regarding her activities: ... is a tomboy


    Backfischjahre could simply be adolescence or teen years - a teenager (pre-teen?)


    Can't think of any precise term like the German :)

    #1Author RES-can (330291) 03 Jul 20, 20:55
    Comment

    Such girls behave not like girls in puberty but like boys in puberty.


    (Zum Tomboy gehören entsprechende Kleidung und Frisur; ich weiß nicht, ob das hier der Fall ist.)

    #2Author mbshu (874725)  03 Jul 20, 22:28
    Comment

    Zum Tomboy gehören entsprechende Kleidung und Frisur.


    Sometimes, but not necessarily. It's true that these girls don't usually appreciate dresses, but that's not the main thing ... it's behaving (a bit) like a boy.

    #3Author RES-can (330291) 03 Jul 20, 23:03
    Comment

    Adolescents like that aren't girly; they are regular tomboys who climb trees, snitch apples, etc.


    Notes. 1. I agree about tomboy. Dress isn't essential. Here's the OED definition: "A girl or young woman who acts or dresses in what is considered to be a boyish way, esp. one who likes rough or energetic activities conventionally more associated with boys." Even more on point, the OED quotes Margaret Mead from 1949: "To be a tomboy meant to run wild, climb trees, steal apples from orchards, fight, play boys' games."


    2. I think that an academic in the 1930s would more like have written "adolescents" than my alternative, "teenagers." You can't say "girls" if you are following it up with "girly" (already used in the 18th century); if you have a different follow-up, of course you could.


    3. Snitch (klauen) is more colorful than stehlen, of course. You certainly could use "steal."

    #4Authormabr (598108) 04 Jul 20, 17:35
    Comment
    mabr: this is helpful. dear all: what about “girly years“ vs. “tomboy years“?
    #5Author Ferenczi (237228) 05 Jul 20, 20:08
    Comment

    teenage girl(y) years ?

    #6Author no me bré (700807) 05 Jul 20, 20:18
    Comment

    Es passt zwar hier nur bedingt, aber ich muss noch mal das wunderbare Wort anbringen, dass ich letztens in einem Roman gelernt habe, der bei den Amish spielt:


    rumspringa, a.k.a. round-around years


    Alt genug wäre es vermutlich ;-)

    #7Author Gibson (418762)  05 Jul 20, 20:21
    Comment

    Hi Gibson ... it is cute, but very specific. It wouldn't generally be known I would think, except in the Amish environment ....

    #8Author RES-can (330291) 05 Jul 20, 23:47
    Sources

    Heute geht alles, Mädchen dürfen weiblich UND männlich sein:

    Die 9-jährige klettert die Kletterwand rauf, und wie, und mit Kraft in den Fingern!

    Liebt aber auch Schmuck!

    Comment

    Wie man diese Dualität in die Dreißigerjahre reinkriegt (falls doch ein bisschen notwendig), ist aber auch nicht so leicht.

    #9Author ad.joe (236303) 06 Jul 20, 08:28
    Comment

    Wie wäre es denn mit "nick" für "stehlen"?



    #10Author B.L.Z. Bubb (601295) 06 Jul 20, 08:37
    Comment

    Im Deutschen war ein Teenager-Mädchen ein Backfisch und ein Junge in den Flegeljahren. Da es im Englischen für beide Geschlechter nur teenager gibt, denke ich auch, dass man im Englischen sagt "such girls do not behave like girls but like boys" oder "such girls are tomboys in their teenage years". Für tomboy gibt es ja wiederum im Deutschen keinen richtigen Ausdruck.

    #11AuthorColorada (428933) 06 Jul 20, 16:30
    Comment

    a synonym for tomboy would be hoyden ... but it is now rarely used, and at least to me, seems more negative than tomboy.


    #11 - I would not say such girls ... just sounds odd and very negative.

    ... girls like that tend to act more like boys .....



    #12Author RES-can (330291) 06 Jul 20, 20:37
    Comment

    I agree with #12...

    Girls like that .... sounds a little less like finger-wagging.

    But it seems to me a bit more context would be interesting.. Girls like what at that awkward age tend to be tomboyish?

    #13Author eclectus (1173200)  06 Jul 20, 22:43
    Comment

    To #5. Adolescence is a span of years, so "girly years" and "tomboy years" are redundant expressions.


    #7: I sure wouldn't have a clue what "round-around years" might be. Not a single Google hit. Maybe a typo on your part? Wikipedia gives this for "rumspringa": "Not all Amish use this term (it does not occur in John A. Hostetler's extended discussion of adolescence among the Amish), but in sects that do, Amish elders generally view it as a time for courtship and finding a spouse."


    #10: "Nick" wasn't familiar to me. Wiktionary identifies at as British or Australian slang. Not used in US, so far as I'm aware.

    #14Authormabr (598108) 09 Jul 20, 05:02
    Sources
    "Solche Mädchen haben dann keine Backfischjahre, sondern richtige Flegeljahre, sie klettern auf Bäume, stehlen Äpfel usw."

    Comment
    Conveying the nuances in English is hard without just paraphrasing or even footnoting. If I had that much space, I might use associations like 'naive' or 'innocent' or 'awkward' as well as 'girlish.' But if not, maybe ...

    Girls like that / Such girls do not have a typically girlish adolescence, but a loutish one; they climb trees, steal apples, and so on.

    I don't like 'girly,' in any case -- it sounds too modern, too slangy, too negative (cf. 'girly-girly'), or some combination of those. But I don't mind 'girls' and 'girlish,' since we don't seem to have any other word.

    I agree with other AE speakers that there's no need to use slang, especially BE slang like 'nick,' when 'stehlen' is just a standard verb.

    #15Author hm -- us (236141) 09 Jul 20, 08:07
    Comment

    Re #14: Yes, sorry, that was supposed to be "RUN-around years". My brain was evidently thinking of the second word when typing the first.


    (I don't know how accurate the terms are - the book in question was fiction, not anthropology ;-)

    #16Author Gibson (418762) 09 Jul 20, 13:07
    Comment

    GIrlish is better. Girly is old enough. OED gives a run of quotes starting in 1857. But Backfisch is common, and girly isn't. I was trying to dress up what sounds like a pretty boring lecture.

    #17Authormabr (598108) 09 Jul 20, 23:23
    Comment

    Thx to all! I think I'll go along with hm -- us; perhaps with a small modification: "tomboyish" instead of "loutish".

    #18Author Ferenczi (237228) 10 Jul 20, 11:39
    Comment

    Just maybe to give you a little more feeling for the German text: A Backfisch is a girl in her older teens (14 upwards) that starts realizing that it is a girl and responds to this by dressing more womanly, using make-up, behaving more ladylike. In the context of the Thirties, she is entering the phase of becoming a proper woman and making herself interesting for boys as potential future husbands. Flegeljahre is a word predominantly used for boys who rebell against authority in a minor way. It is the typical "boys-will-be-boys" behavior of old. In essence, what the lecturer is saying - in mordern terms - is: "These are girls who are not looking for a boy (to settle with in marriage), but behave like a boy."

    #19Author Pinscheline (1070141) 10 Jul 20, 11:55
    Comment

    Wegen 'Backfisch': Es gibt im Forum-Archiv ein paar Fäden zu 'flapper'. Nicht ganz einfach, da durchzusteigen (auch wegen zirkuläre Verlinkungen).

    #20AuthorBraunbärin (757733) 11 Jul 20, 19:02
     
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