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Wrong entry in LEO?

heel - Bogenansatz (Streichinstrumente)

6 Replies

Wrong entry		heel noun mus. - Bogenansatz (Streichinstrumente)
Comment		Unter Bogenansatz (Streichinstrument) stell ich mir die Art des Bogenkontaktes mit der Saite bei der Tonerzeugung vor. Google-Bilder bringen aber nur Befestigungsstellen der Hälse von Gitarren und Geigen am Korpus. Und die haben tatächlich eine gewisse Ähnlichkeit mit High Heels, Stöckelschuhen. Kann da eine Verwechslung vorliegen mit "Wie wird der Hals am Korpus angesetzt/angebracht/befestigt"? Können das Gitarrespieler oder Instrumentenmacher mal anschauen??
Author		manni3 (305129)	14 Sep 13, 20:13

#1	Author	hm -- us (236141)	14 Sep 13, 20:49
Comment		If it's used with guitar and is located where the neck meets the body, does Bogen refer to the curve of the neck down into the flat part, which is indeed like the surface of the heel of a shoe -- like the shape of a capital D? I wonder if Bogen means the curve, though, while heel means the flat surface on the back at the end of the curve. If so, they may not be exactly the same part. Before reading your comments I thought Bogen- must refer to the bow. The main parts of the bow are the tip (the pointy end) and the frog (the other end that you hold).

#2	Author	manni3 (305129)	14 Sep 13, 20:55
Comment		Ja, diesen Bogen mit Spitze und Frosch meine ich auch - so interpretiere ich Bogenansatz: die Technik der Tonerzeugung mit der Bogenhand.

#3	Author	Rodos (930149)	14 Sep 13, 23:24
Context/ examples		https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bogenansatz... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_guitar
Comment		"Ansatz" kann im Deutschen zweierlei sein: a) die Art der Tonerzeugung beim Singen oder bei Instrumenten b) ganz generell die Stelle, wo ein Teil eines Gegenstands oder Körperteils beginnt Während manni3 vom deutschen Eintrag ausgeht und die englische Seite korrigieren will, ist mein Ansatz genau umgekehrt: das englische "heel" bezeichnet einen Bauteil (s. #2), der im Deutschen allerdings "Halsansatz" heißt und nicht Bogenansatz (s. oben). Es wäre also die deutsche Seite dahingehend zu korrigieren und eventuell auch der Zusatz "Streichinstrumente", denn ich kenne den Halsansatz nur von der Gitarre und auch hm--us erwähnt nur sie. Bei der Violine ist der Teil kleiner und weniger ausgeprägt, sodass man ihn möglicherweise gar nicht eigens bezeichnet. Das müssten Geigenspieler oder -bauer bestätigen.

#4	Author	Wiwi6 (1338609)	06 Oct 21, 18:52
Comment		Ich denke, hier werden deutsche und englische Begriffe lustig durcheinandergemischt. Der englische Saddle ist eben nicht der Sattel, sondern einer der Saitenreiter auf dem Steg. Die englische Bridge ist nicht die Brücke, sondern der Steg. Die englische Nut bezeichnet den Sattel -- aber auch die Mutter auf dem Halseinstellstab bei Gitarren, engl. Truss Rod. Der englische Neck Heel ist der deutsche Halsfuß, dieser verdickte Teil am Übergang zum Korpus (nicht nur die flache Stelle am Ende dieses Halsfußes, wie hm -- us meinte: ...while heel means the flat surface on the back at the end of the curve. Das ist eher die Heel Cap). An Rodos: Diesen Neck Heel/Halsfuß gibt es bei allen Saiten-Instrumenten mit freistehendem, am Korpusende verdicktem Hals -- also Violine (Geige), Viola (Bratsche), Violoncello (Cello), Kontrabaß, Gitarre (akustisch und elektrisch), Ukulele, Balalaika usw. Unter Bogenansatz verstehe ich auch eher diesen kurzen, leicht energischen Ruck, der erst die Saiten zum Schwingen bringt.

#5	Author	hm -- us (236141)	06 Oct 21, 21:59
Comment		Thank you for reviving the thread. So both you and manni understand Bogenansatz mainly as the attack, the beginning of the note, with regard to the bow hand (right hand). Maybe it's my aging brain or maybe it's just been too long since I played, but I'm not sure we have any other single word for that. Perhaps other string players will comment. As for the lesser-known parts of the instrument, it might be helpful just to list each of them in both languages, since evidently we amateur musicians (well, speaking mainly for myself) may not know them even in our own language. /-; Or if you can recommend a multilingual website, or different ones for different languages? We could actually build our own little glossary, if there was any interest.

Suggestions	heel (of the bow) (string instruments) mus. Brit. - der Frosch frog (of the bow) (string instruments) mus. Amer. - der Frosch
Context/ examples	https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/85431?rskey=k6... heel n. The end at which the bow of a stringed instrument is held. Opposed to point n.1 19d. 1842 J. A. Hamilton Dict. Mus. Terms (new ed.) 85 Talon,..The heel of the bow, that part near the nut. 1856 M. C. Clarke tr. H. Berlioz Treat. Mod. Instrumentation 12 With the heel [Fr. talon] of the [violin] bow. 1915 J. Dunn Violin Playing (ed. 3) viii. 50 The third example can also be taken at the heel, commencing down bow, when the bow will be raised for the accented notes as at the point. 1987 D. C. Pratt & C. Bunting 'Cello Technique v. 12 Proceed similarly with the up-bow until about four inches from the heel. 2009 A. Barlowe 12 Etude-caprices 9 The easiest places to check levels are at the middle and the heel of the bow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin#Bows A violin is usually played using a bow consisting of a stick with a ribbon of horsehair strung between the tip and frog (or nut, or heel) at opposite ends. https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Frosch Griffende des Bogens von Streichinstrumenten, das mit einer Stellschraube zum Spannen der Saiten versehen ist; Talon (3) http://www.bildwoerterbuch.com/en/arts-and-ar... The Bogenansatz is shown as the very bottom bit of the bow, encompassing the frog/grip/nut. https://www.badische-zeitung.de/der-frosch-au... Wieso heißt der Frosch, an dem ein Geiger den Bogen hält, Frosch? Dafür gibt es zwei Erklärungen: Ein Grund ist, dass der Frosch eine maulähnliche Öffnung hat. Außerdem wurde der Frosch bei Barockbögen nur aufgesetzt und konnte deshalb leicht "weghüpfen". https://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/4948-heel heel [English] Another term for frog. https://www.violinonline.com/bowingeffects.html Au talon: Talon is French for heel, and the term au talon, “at the heel,” means play the music with the bow hair at the heel or bottom part of the bow, closest to the hand (other terms for playing music using the bottom part of the bow include "at the frog" or nut). http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~leonid/play... Playing at the heel and other notes about teaching An awkward place to be for some : Some violinists aren’t comfortable at the heel. Perhaps they stopped going all the way to heel, some time ago. There may be 2 inches of greasy bow hair at the heel which has no rosin, and slips on the string .... another indication that the owner of that bow doesn’t play at the heel. https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/85431?rskey=k6... s. On a guitar, violin, or similar stringed instrument: the point at which the neck is attached to the body of the instrument. 1909 Common-sense June 8 (advt.) Mandolin... Natural mahogany finished neck with shaped heel and head. 1978 Early Music 6 533/1 The ribs [of the viol] have been cut down to taper evenly from the heel to the end. 2003 P. F. Gura C. F. Martin & his Guitars iii. 106 He..commonly used what is known as a Spanish-shaped heel rather than the ice cream cone shape typical of his earlier instruments.
Comment	I think we might have US-UK differences at play here. The English side almost certainly refers to the HEEL OF THE BOW, known to hm--us and German speakers as the frog/Frosch. I don't think any UK violinist would read 'heel' alongside the words 'Bogen-' and 'Streichinstrumente' in the original entry and think of anything other than the very bottom two inches of the bow. Helpfully there's an OED entry to confirm this, and some parentheses in the Wikipedia article on bow construction, and I've linked to some other UK sites that talk about 'playing at the heel'. Thoughts welcome from other string players! How do you say 'playing at the heel' in German?
#6	Author	papousek (343122)	12 Oct 21, 12:00

Suggestions

heel (of the bow) (string instruments)

mus. Brit. -

der Frosch

frog (of the bow) (string instruments)

mus. Amer. -

der Frosch

Context/ examples

https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/85431?rskey=k6...

heel

n. The end at which the bow of a stringed instrument is held. Opposed to point n.1 19d.

1842 J. A. Hamilton Dict. Mus. Terms (new ed.) 85 Talon,..The heel of the bow, that part near the nut.

1856 M. C. Clarke tr. H. Berlioz Treat. Mod. Instrumentation 12 With the heel [Fr. talon] of the [violin] bow.

1915 J. Dunn Violin Playing (ed. 3) viii. 50 The third example can also be taken at the heel, commencing down bow, when the bow will be raised for the accented notes as at the point.

1987 D. C. Pratt & C. Bunting 'Cello Technique v. 12 Proceed similarly with the up-bow until about four inches from the heel.

2009 A. Barlowe 12 Etude-caprices 9 The easiest places to check levels are at the middle and the heel of the bow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin#Bows

A violin is usually played using a bow consisting of a stick with a ribbon of horsehair strung between the tip and frog (or nut, or heel) at opposite ends.

https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Frosch

Griffende des Bogens von Streichinstrumenten, das mit einer Stellschraube zum Spannen der Saiten versehen ist; Talon (3)

http://www.bildwoerterbuch.com/en/arts-and-ar...

The Bogenansatz is shown as the very bottom bit of the bow, encompassing the frog/grip/nut.

https://www.badische-zeitung.de/der-frosch-au...

Wieso heißt der Frosch, an dem ein Geiger den Bogen hält, Frosch?

Dafür gibt es zwei Erklärungen: Ein Grund ist, dass der Frosch eine maulähnliche Öffnung hat. Außerdem wurde der Frosch bei Barockbögen nur aufgesetzt und konnte deshalb leicht "weghüpfen".

https://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/4948-heel

heel [English]

Another term for frog.

https://www.violinonline.com/bowingeffects.html

Au talon: Talon is French for heel, and the term au talon, “at the heel,” means play the music with the bow hair at the heel or bottom part of the bow, closest to the hand (other terms for playing music using the bottom part of the bow include "at the frog" or nut).

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~leonid/play...

Playing at the heel and other notes about teaching

An awkward place to be for some : Some violinists aren’t comfortable at the heel. Perhaps they stopped going all the way to heel, some time ago. There may be 2 inches of greasy bow hair at the heel which has no rosin, and slips on the string .... another indication that the owner of that bow doesn’t play at the heel.

https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/85431?rskey=k6...

s. On a guitar, violin, or similar stringed instrument: the point at which the neck is attached to the body of the instrument.

1909 Common-sense June 8 (advt.) Mandolin... Natural mahogany finished neck with shaped heel and head.

1978 Early Music 6 533/1 The ribs [of the viol] have been cut down to taper evenly from the heel to the end.

2003 P. F. Gura C. F. Martin & his Guitars iii. 106 He..commonly used what is known as a Spanish-shaped heel rather than the ice cream cone shape typical of his earlier instruments.

Comment

I think we might have US-UK differences at play here. The English side almost certainly refers to the HEEL OF THE BOW, known to hm--us and German speakers as the frog/Frosch. I don't think any UK violinist would read 'heel' alongside the words 'Bogen-' and 'Streichinstrumente' in the original entry and think of anything other than the very bottom two inches of the bow.

Helpfully there's an OED entry to confirm this, and some parentheses in the Wikipedia article on bow construction, and I've linked to some other UK sites that talk about 'playing at the heel'.

Thoughts welcome from other string players! How do you say 'playing at the heel' in German?

Author

papousek (343122)

12 Oct 21, 12:00

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Wrong entry in LEO?

heel - Bogenansatz (Streichinstrumente)

heel noun mus. - Bogenansatz (Streichinstrumente)

heel (of the bow) (string instruments)

der Frosch

frog (of the bow) (string instruments)

der Frosch

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Internationales Phonetisches Alphabet (IPA)

Trennende diaktritische Zeichen und Suprasegmentale

Kombinierende diaktritische Zeichen und Suprasegmentale

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Forum home

Wrong entry in LEO?

heel - Bogenansatz (Streichinstrumente)

heel noun mus. - Bogenansatz (Streichinstrumente)

heel (of the bow) (string instruments)

der Frosch

frog (of the bow) (string instruments)

der Frosch

emojis

flags

Internationales Phonetisches Alphabet (IPA)

Trennende diaktritische Zeichen und Suprasegmentale

Kombinierende diaktritische Zeichen und Suprasegmentale

Pfeile

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