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  • Falscher Eintrag

    greens - Suppengrün

    Kommentar
    "Suppengrün" includes carrots, lauch, celery root, etc. "Greens" typically refers to different kinds of cabbage or leafy vegetables. They cannot be equated. (See thread on "Suppengrün")
    Verfasser German Tarheel (EY) (147393) 08 Sep. 16, 10:49
    Kommentar
    When you mention a LEO thread, please include a link to it:
    #1VerfasserM-A-Z (306843) 08 Sep. 16, 10:56
    Kommentar
    Thanks. Sorry about that.
    #2VerfasserGerman Tarheel (EY) (147393) 08 Sep. 16, 17:31
    Kommentar
    Hi, EY -- hope you can still vote absentee in NC. (-:

    I generally agree, but the question may be what to put for Suppengrün instead. 'Soup vegetables'? 'Vegetables for soup stock'? Partly a cultural difference, as in my experience US grocery stores just don't sell small bunches of mixed vegetables.

    For 'greens' E > D, I think of any leafy dark-green vegetables cooked like spinach -- mainly collard greens, but possibly also something like turnip greens. Anyway, not sure how to say that in D.

    *edit*

    Again, I tried once to send this from the iPad, and apparently nothing happened the first time, for no explicable reason.

    Sorry in advance if it double posts.
    #3Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 08 Sep. 16, 21:44
    Kommentar
    well, I can't think of anything better than "vegetables for soup stock" either...

    as to greens - there is also the expression "eat your greens" - "iss dein (grünes) Gemüse".....
    #4Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 18 Sep. 16, 15:49
    Kommentar
    I think of any leafy dark-green vegetables cooked like spinach -- mainly collard greens, but possibly also something like turnip greens. Anyway, not sure how to say that in D

    Das würde ich "Blattgemüse" nennen.
    #5VerfasserReisigbesen (1082761) 20 Sep. 16, 15:46
    Kommentar
    Slightly OT:

     I think of any leafy dark-green vegetables cooked like spinach -- mainly collard greens

    I have only ever read the expression "collard greens" in American novels, is this an AE thing? LEO gives "Kohlblätter" as a translation Siehe Wörterbuch: collard greens
     which, if "collard greens" are indeed dark green, seems slightly misleading as  "Kohlblätter" is simply "cabbage leaves" to me and not all cabbages are dark green. Are collard greens more like Savoy cabbage, or more like kale, or do they resemble Swiss chard more closely? or none of the three, and they are completely different?
     
    #6VerfasserDragon (238202) 20 Sep. 16, 16:32
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    Kommentar
    Definitely dark green -- cabbage isn't 'greens,' it's just cabbage. I would say collard greens are more like kale, but even a little tougher, so they're usually cooked a fairly long time -- not to say boiled to a soggy state approaching mush, in the traditional style that not all of us southerners remember that fondly. That is, yes, a US thing, and more specifically a southern thing.

    But if you call it couve, cut it in strips, and serve it with feijoada, it's much more interesting. (-:

    The Wiki article mentions turnip greens and mustard greens as two other kinds of greens. I suspect those may not feature much if at all as a stand-alone vegetable in German cooking, so 'greens' and 'Suppengrün' may both be terms without an exact equivalent in the other language. But there should at least be a way to give a short descriptive phrase, maybe in italics.
    #7Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 20 Sep. 16, 19:08
    Kommentar
    Suppengrün hat absolut gar nichts zu tun mit Kohl, wie bereits ausgeführt.

    Couve Mineira als (grüne) Beilage zu Feijoada ist eine spezielle brasilianische Sorte des Grünkohls mit glatten statt krausen Blättern, sieht aber auf den Bildern ähnlich aus wie 'collard greens'.
    #8Verfasserpenguin (236245) 20 Sep. 16, 19:24
    Vorschläge

    mirepoix

    -

    Suppengrün



    Kontext/ Beispiele
    Definition of mirepoix
    plural mirepoix
    :  a sautéed mixture of diced vegetables (as carrots, celery, and onions), herbs, and sometimes ham or bacon used especially as a basis for soups, stews, and sauces
    Kommentar
    If you're looking for the "official" culinary term...

    See also ## 7, 8 in the thread linked above:
    #9VerfasserAnne(gb) (236994) 21 Sep. 16, 09:55
    Kommentar
    Ergänzend: mit "mirepoix" bezeichnet man im Französischen sowohl das Röstgemüse (oder Suppengrün) selbst als auch die Größe der Würfel, in die es geschnitten wird - als Abgrenzung zu "brunoise" (noch kleinere Würfelchen) oder "julienne" (feine Streifen).
    #10Verfasserpenguin (236245) 21 Sep. 16, 10:05
    Kommentar
    The Wiki article mentions turnip greens and mustard greens as two other kinds of greens. I suspect those may not feature much if at all as a stand-alone vegetable in German cooking,

    Rübstiel/Stielmus is actually pretty traditional in German cooking, at least in this area. I see it frequently when I visit the market. It isn't something I grew up with, however, since my mother, unsurprisingly, wasn't too big on German cooking, so I couldn't tell you whether it is cooked as a stand-alone vegetable (I suspect it is mixed with mashed potatoes, but I'm not quite sure). Maybe penguin knows more about that. 
    #11VerfasserDragon (238202) 21 Sep. 16, 11:09
    Kommentar
    Dragon, wir haben zu Hause wenig Kohl und Kohlgemüse gegessen, deshalb weiß ich da auch nicht mehr als du (außer, was ich eben gegoogelt habe, und ja, Rübstiel scheint man oft als "Gemüse untereinander" mit Kartoffeln zu mischen, ähnlich wie bubble and squeak).

    Ich habe aber als Teenager in Brasilien gelebt und war vor einem halben Jahr auch wieder dort, deshalb habe ich lebhafte Erinnerungen an den dunkelgrünen Couve Mineira, aber wie der botanisch und in anderen Sprachen heißt, wüßte ich jetzt auch nicht aus dem Kopf.
    #12Verfasserpenguin (236245) 21 Sep. 16, 11:27
    Vorschläge

    soup greens

    -



    Kommentar
    So very often a literal translation is the wrong choice, that we sometimes overlook it when it could be the right one. Soup greens seems fine to me here.

    The fact that they are not usually prepackaged together in the supermarket seems irrelevant to me (unless the original is about supermarket shopping).
    #13VerfasserPeter <us> (41) 01 Okt. 16, 22:12
    Kommentar
    Hi, Peter, good to see you around.

    I was going on the assumption that it was a little bunch of actual vegetables, like one carrot, one turnip, a piece of fennel, etc. I thought they did have the greens (tops) still attached, but that it wasn't actually only greens.

    But maybe that's not right -- see what the people say who have more experience with shopping and cooking in German.

    In the thread linked above in #1, some people thought there was a difference between Suppengrün and Suppengemüse, others didn't.
    #14Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 01 Okt. 16, 22:40
    Kommentar
    But maybe that's not right 
    no, it isn't.

    This is Suppengrün: Suppengrün

    You can buy it ready-packed at the supermarket or the market and even pre-packaged ready-cut and frozen.

    It does not have anything to do with having the greens still attached, and it does not include "greens" (cabbage, mustard greens ...).
    #15Verfasserpenguin (236245) 01 Okt. 16, 23:00
    Kommentar
    If that's what it is, then it's very culturally bound, and cannot be translated accurately in a short phrase. In this case, the context of the original and the target audience matter a great deal.

    If it's a work of German fiction and they're mentioning in passing what the family is having for dinner, than a short phrase is good enough, even if not accurate: "some vegetables for soup", "some soup greens" or any of the other suggestions.

    If it's a book of German recipes, then you'd better be more specific so the Anglo cook knows what to add to the pot: "...and add the soup greens (a little package of assorted veggies sold as a unit, and typically containing a carrot, celery root, leek, a bunch of parsley, and often a turnip)" -- or something like that.
    #16VerfasserPeter <us> (41) 02 Okt. 16, 03:52
    Kommentar
    Well, as Anne(gb) mentioned above, there is a term for it which is derived from French: mirepoix

    Moreover, you don't just "have Suppengrün for dinner", you use the diced vegetables to make soup.

    What do you use as a base for soup?
    #17Verfasserpenguin (236245) 02 Okt. 16, 05:56
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    mirepoix
    noun

    A mixture of sautéed chopped vegetables used in various sauces.
    ‘His mirepoix is listed among ‘essences’ and, indeed, is a meaty concoction (laced with two bottles of Madeira!) which, like all other essences, was used to enrich many a classic sauce.’‘Using the same frying pan, add the mirepoix of vegetable and colour.’‘We hack through six duck carcasses while Kristi, a striking blue-eyed brunette from Newport Beach, California, starts our mirepoix.’‘I added the mirepoix and explained to the class how this mixture of diced onion, carrot, and celery is the foundation of all great sauces.’‘He has a typically light Italian touch with, for example, sweetbreads, which are served clean and white with a high and herbal saffron sauce on a sort of mirepoix of carrots and celery.’
    Kommentar
    the online Oxford suggests mirepoix are sauteed - this is not the case with Suppengrün.
    #18Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 03 Okt. 16, 16:35
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    Zubereitungsschritte
    Schritt 1:
    Zum Würzen von Fleisch- und Knochenbrühe wie auch zum Ansetzen von braunen Soßenfonds ist Suppen- bzw. Röstgemüse ein unverzichtbarer Bestandteil. Man unterscheidet zwei Verwendungsarten: 
    Schritt 2:
    -Suppengemüse für klare Brühe: Das Gemüse besteht zu gleichen Teilen aus den angegebenen Gemüsesorten. Statt Petersilie eignen sich auch nur Petersilienstiele, die man im Laufe der Zeit im Tiefkühlfach "gesammelt" hat. Das gewaschene und geputzte Gemüse wird eine Stunde vor Ende der Garzeit in die Brühe gegeben. Die halbierte Zwiebel wird in Öl sehr dunkel angeröstet. Das gibt der Brühe eine goldene Farbe und ein angenehmes Aroma. Vergl. Rezeptarchiv: Rinderkraftbrühe Celestin 
    Schritt 3:
    -Röstgemüse, Mirepoix (-mirpra-) für braune Fonds: Das geputzte Gemüse wird in große Würfel geschnitten und den angebratenen Knochen hinzugefügt. Während des Anröstens verwandelt sich die enthaltene Stärke zu Dextrin und die Zuckersteoffe karamelisieren. So entstehen zusätzliche Farb- und Geschmacksstoffe, welche die Qualität der jeweiligen Zubereitung wesentlich beeinflussen. Am Ende der Anbratzeit soll das Gemüse die gleiche Bräunung haben wie später die Soße. Vergl. Rezeptarchiv: Lamm-Jus. 

    Définition
    Mélange de carottes, oignons, céleri taillés en gros dés. On peut parfois y ajouter du lard maigre ou du jambon cru taillés de la même façon. La mirepoix prend alors le nom de Matignon. Elle sert de base à une sauce ou une garniture aromatique.
    Complément
    La mirepoix s'utilise en ajout dans la cuisson des viandes, gibiers et poissons. Lorsqu'elle est utilisée dans les braisés il faut la faire suer doucement à couvert jusqu'à ce que les légumes soient en état de diffuser leurs arômes.La mirepoix fut créée au XVIII ème siècle par le cuisinier du duc de Lévis-Mirepoix, Maréchal de France et ambassadeur de Louis XV.
    Kommentar
    Another German word for "mirepoix" (for a French definition see above) is "Röstgemüse" - which, incidentally, does not mean the vegetable are sautéed but that they will be sautéed and will then form the basis of a sauce or soup.
    #19Verfasserpenguin (236245) 03 Okt. 16, 16:56
    Kommentar
    AFAIK the main difference is that in Germany you can go to any supermarket and get a bunch of Suppengemüse, usually a bunch of a piece of celeriac, parsley, and a leek, sometimes also an onion.

    In England at least this is not readily available.

    Of course, you can always make it up yourself and you can sautee it or not depending on your own preference.

    As Peter said in # 16 it can't be readily translated and an entry would not be helpful. Imagine walking into a Tesco's and asking for "mirepoix" ;-)

    I'm for a delete unless an explanation in brackets on the English side is preferable.
    #20Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 03 Okt. 16, 18:19
    Kommentar
    >>usually a bunch

    See, that's the point I wasn't clear on. My experience is only a brief visit, but I thought I had seen them sold as a bunch, and I thought that was also what some of the past comments had suggested.

    But if penguin and Anne say they are sold already diced in mirepoix size, then of course they are mirepoix -- though I confess I didn't know that term until this discussion, and would agree that it's probably limited to chefs and upscale grocery stores, not at all known to the general public.

    (Unless mirepoix can also mean a not yet diced bunch, in which case it should be fine. I can't read all the French without looking up words, but 'taillés en gros dés' looks like it means already diced.)

    So I guess what I'm saying is that if it takes a little explanation in italics, perhaps along with whatever else is the closest translation we can get, then I'm for the explanation.
    #21Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 03 Okt. 16, 23:16
    Kommentar
    The vegetables (which, incidentally, also include a carrot but never fennel or turnips) are sold either as a bunch or ready-diced (in which case they are frozen).
    Check out the images I linked in #15.

    "mirepoix" refers both to the cut (larger dice than "brunoise") and the vegetable mix itself (see #10) - but not to the fact that they are sauteed before being added to the soup or the sauce.

    "soup base" might be a possible approximate translation, although that usually includes stock.
    #22Verfasserpenguin (236245) 03 Okt. 16, 23:51
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    Oxf. Amer. Dict. & Thes.:
    mirepoix - a mixture of chopped sautéed vegetables used in various sauces.
    –Origin: named after the French general Duc de Mirepoix.

    Webster's 3rd unabridged:
    mirepoix /also/ mirepois - a foundation of ham or bacon, vegetables, herbs, and seasonings used chiefly under meat in braising

    Random House unabridged:
    mirepoix - 1. a flavoring made from diced vegetables, herbs, and sometimes meat, often placed in a pan to cook with meat or fish. 2. finely chopped vegetables, as onions and carrots, sometimes used as a bed for meat that is to be braised. Also, 'mirepois.'

    OED:
    mirepoix - [Cookery.] A mixture of diced vegetables used for flavoring or served as a vegetable dish.

    Larousse:
    mirepoix -
    (nom fémenin) (du nom du duc de Mirepoix)
    Ensemble de légumes (carottes, oignons, céleris) et de lard maigre détaillés que l'on fait fondre avec des aromates et que l'on ajoute à une préparation pour en corser le goût.
    http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais...



    Kommentar
    Oh dear, I seem to be digging myself farther into a hole among the real cooks. Maybe I was thinking of celeriac and not fennel. And I like a little turnip in soup sometimes whether it's standard or not. Sorry, sorry, sorry. At least I do sometimes make soup from scratch. It's an accomplishment for me as a not-really cook, even if no one else cares.

    But anyway, if we had some evidence to support #10 that mirepoix can also be a bunch, we would certainly be making progress.

    Unfortunately none of my dictionaries seem to support that so far -- in fact, they seem to go back to using the vegetables as a base under meat, so I wonder if the meaning of a base for a soup or sauce perhaps came later.

    'Tailler' seems to mean to cut (or tailor, cut to size), and 'dé, dés' seems to mean 'die, dice.'

    The duke is a puzzle to me -- apparently his family didn't look at peas (= les pois), but rather at pitch (= la poix), that is, the black sticky stuff? Another etymological mystery ... (-:

    #23Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 04 Okt. 16, 08:41
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    Unter dem Begriff Suppengemüse versteht man eine Mischung aus verschiedenen Gemüsen. Es besteht in der Regel aus Karotte, Lauch, Petersilie und Sellerie. Man kann es sowohl frisch als auch getrocknet im Handel erhalten. Das frische Suppengemüse wird auch unter der Bezeichnung Suppengrün gehandelt.
    Kommentar
    Now I am sorry.
    I never said that "mirepoix" refers to the fact that it comes in a bunch.
    I said that "mirepoix" refers to both the mix of vegetables (as Larousse says, "ensemble de légumes") and the cut (large dice, "gros dés", not small ones like "brunoise"). The bacon ("lard maigre") is optional.
    A bunch of soup vegetables isn't something restricted to Germany. Many soup recipes in several languages start off with dicing celery, carrot, leek and possibly other vegetables and using them as a soup base. They just don't lump them together in one word.

    Now, to get back to the OP:
    I also support the deletion of "greens = Suppengrün".
    "greens" are green leafy vegetables.

    And to answer your question in #14 - Suppengemüse and Suppengrün are the same thing, see the definition from lebensmittellexikon.de above.
    #24Verfasserpenguin (236245) 04 Okt. 16, 09:15
    Kommentar
    sorry about my nitpicking but Suppengrün and Suppengemüse are not the same AFAIK.

    Suppengemüse is mainly sold frozen and has a mix of veg that goes into a broth. Suppengrün is a limited selection of (different) veg to make up the broth in the first place.

    Just google pics of both.
    #25Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 06 Okt. 16, 11:03
    Kommentar
    I give up.
    #26Verfasserpenguin (236245) 06 Okt. 16, 11:04
    Kommentar
    @25 Wie kommst du denn auf die Idee? Suppengemüse und Suppengrün sind dasselbe.
    #27VerfasserRussisch Brot (340782) 06 Okt. 16, 11:34
    Kommentar
    perhaps there are regional differences, I wouldn't know. Many seem to use both terms interchangeably.


    vs.

    ...


    #28Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 06 Okt. 16, 13:17
    Kommentar
    Und was soll das jetzt? Aus dem einen wird genauso Suppe gekocht, wie aus dem anderen. Bei der Tiefkühlvariante spart man sich das Putzen und Schneiden.
    #29VerfasserRussisch Brot (340782) 06 Okt. 16, 14:22
    Kommentar
    Exakt. Suppengrün = Suppengemüse = Möhre + Knollensellerie + Lauch (= Porree) + Petersilie, manchmal auch + Blumenkohl. Gibt es frisch (am Stück) als Bund oder aber fertig geputzt, gewaschen und gewürfelt als TK-Ware. Beides kann man verwenden, um (auch z.B. zusammen mit einer Rinderbeinscheibe oder einem Suppenhuhn) eine Brühe zu kochen. Ob man das Zeug nun Suppengrün oder Suppengemüse nennt, ist dabei ziemlich egal und kommt wahrscheinlich auf den persönlichen Geschmack, die Herkunftsregion sowie Lust und Laune des Sprechers an. 
    #30VerfasserDragon (238202) 06 Okt. 16, 16:22
    Kommentar
    Der aufmerksame Leser sieht sich die Bilder an. Blumenkohl und anderes Gemüse geben einer Suppe nicht viel Geschmack, das können in erster LInie Wurzelgemüse und Zwiebelarten.

    Auf jeden Fall ist der Eintrag aber falsch, denn greens ist was anderes.
    #31Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 06 Okt. 16, 20:26
    Vorschläge

    vegetables for soup stock

    Kochk. -

    das Suppengrün / das Suppengemüse



    mirepoix

    Kochk. -

    gewürfeltes Suppengrün / Suppengemüse (ggf. mit Schinken o. ä.)



    greens

    Kochk. Pl. -

    dunkelgrünes Kohlgemüse



    Kontext/ Beispiele
    Kommentar
    Okay, I realize we're sort of going around in circles now, but I hate to give up when we've come this far.

    LEO has 'greens = Grünzeug,' which I assume could cover a lot, including possibly dark green leafy vegetables.

    If we added the above suggestions, wouldn't that at least be enough to give people a basic idea, so that in future, no one would have to reread this whole thread?

    I may also propose changing the existing entry for collard greens to show that it's a specific dark green, flat-leafed kind of Kohl, if I can think how.

    And perhaps someone else would like to do an entry for Röstgemüse, in case it can also mean just roasted vegetables.
    #32Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 06 Okt. 16, 21:17
    Kommentar
    good suggestion, supported
    #33Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 07 Okt. 16, 13:01
    Kommentar
    There is no point in quoting French sources. Loan words from another language need not retain their original meaning as the example of "entrée" in gastronomy shows (Siehe auch: entree - Hauptgericht). English usage must be corroborated by native English sources, German usage by German sources.

    Unlike jamqueen, I'm challenging the use of the expression "gewürfeltes Suppengrün" and equating it with "Suppengemüse".
    #34VerfasserM-A-Z (306843) 07 Okt. 16, 17:44
    Kommentar
    @ M-A-Z. In my previous posts I tried to convince people that there is a difference. However, several online sources, amongst them the Lebensmittellexikon, don't want to make a distinction. It seems that the two terms are used interchangeably quite often, even though they're not the same. I bowed to usage.
    #35Verfasserjamqueen (1129860) 08 Okt. 16, 11:34
    Kommentar
    ... and get a bunch of Suppengemüse, usually a bunch of a piece of celeriac, parsley, and a leek, sometimes also an onion.
    #20, jamqueen

    Suppengemüse is mainly sold frozen and has a mix of veg that goes into a broth. 
    Suppengrün is a limited selection of (different) veg to make up the broth in the first place.
    #25, jamqueen

    Aren't you contradicting yourself there?
    #36Verfasserpenguin (236245) 08 Okt. 16, 19:34
    Kommentar
    Maybe we're confusing ourselves a little, with some people just trying to give a casual description of how they recall seeing some of the terms used, and others trying to narrow down dictionary definitions, when usage just seems to vary, whether by region or just from speaker to speaker. Perhaps it would help to just focus on a little more on the terms and give each other the benefit of the doubt regarding anyone's personal experience.

    A private communication has suggested to me that other terms could be added for 'mirepoix,' including (der / die / das?) Mirepoix and Röstgemüse.

    It also brings up other terms that no one has yet mentioned here, such as Wurzelwerk aka Wurzelzeug, which certainly gets the point across about including root vegetables.

    I certainly don't oppose any of that in principle, but since I myself am not that familiar with many of the German options, the German speakers may need to be the ones to choose among them.

    Again, even if there are some variations in usage, it seems to me that getting some close-enough definition of several of these missing terms in the dictionary would be better than not having them at all.

    And then if anyone wants to suggest this to the survey of regional German, we might get a more detailed answer next year. (-:
    #37Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 08 Okt. 16, 21:51
     
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