• Übersicht

    Falscher Eintrag in LEO?

    to reckon without one's host - die Rechnung ohne den Wirt machen

    Falscher Eintrag

    to reckon without one's host - die Rechnung ohne den Wirt machen


    to count one's chickens before they're hatched


    die Rechnung ohne den Wirt machen

    Folgender Kommentar erreichte das LEO-Team anonym über das Einsendeformular
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    dem Eintrag/Thema gepostet würden.

    Die (angebliche) englische Version dieses deutschen Idioms sollte unmittelbar gelöscht werden! Es ist eine wortwörtliche "Übersetzung", sprich nicht gängige Calque. Kein englischer Mutterspachler würde das verstehen.
    >> Wenn es eine direkte idiomatische Entspechung gäbe, wäre dies: to count one's chickens before they're hatched.> Eine (vielleicht prosaische) nicht idiomatische Entsprechung wäre: to miscalculate.
    VerfasserAnonyme Einsendung (338423) 26 Jan. 10, 09:56
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    Google spuckt ein paar UK Treffer aus.
    Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

    Reckon Reck"on intransitive verb 1. To make an enumeration or computation; to engage in numbering or computing. Shak.

    2. To come to an accounting; to make up accounts; to settle; to examine and strike the balance of debt and credit; to adjust relations of desert or penalty.

    "Parfay," sayst thou, "sometime he reckon shall."

    To reckon for , to answer for; to pay the account for. "If they fail in their bounden duty, they shall reckon for it one day." Bp. Sanderson. -- To reckon on or upon , to count or depend on. -- To reckon with , to settle accounts or claims with; -- used literally or figuratively.

    After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    Matt. xxv. 19.

    -- To reckon without one's host , to ignore in a calculation or arrangement the person whose assent is essential; hence, to reckon erroneously.


    English Heritage Battlefield Report: Northampton 1460:

    "...And to him who says that those who reckon without one's host customarily reckons twice over..."

    Noch ein Google Books Treffer:
    Titel: Early american Proverbs and proverbial phrases:
    Listet Werke zwischen 1680 und 1832, in denen die Redewendung vorkommt.

    Nicht löschen!

    Vielleicht ist die Redewendung veraltet und sollte entsprechend gekennzeichnet werden?
    #1VerfasserChetara (616991) 26 Jan. 10, 16:25
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    New Shorter OED:
    reckon without one’s host - neglect a difficulty, opposition, etc.

    Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 1981:
    To reckon from your own standpoint only; not to allow for what the other man may do or think or decide.

    die R. ohne den Wirt machen (mit etw. scheitern, weil man sich nicht des Einverständnisses des od. der Beteiligten versichert hat)
    © 2000 Dudenverlag
    I've never heard of it and would have wondered what it meant. Can't find anything dating it, though.

    "To count one's chickens before they're hatched" means something else. Siehe Wörterbuch: chickens
    #2VerfasserCM2DD (236324) 26 Jan. 10, 17:28
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    Ich habe auch in Google gesucht und eine Reihe von Fundstellen gefunden, z.B. aus dem Buch "Early American proverbs and proverbial phrases" von Bartlett Jere Whiting

    oder dem Buch "Why You Say It" von Webb B. Garrison (mit einer Erklärung, wo das Sprichwort herkommt) http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iFZi9EXyXr...

    oder auch "Dictionary of Idiomatic English Phrases" von James Main Dixon http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MSTFYH8_By...

    Daneben auch in "A Dictionary of Archaic and Provincial Words, Obsolete Phrases, Proverbs, and Ancient Customs, from the Fourteenth Century" von James Orchard Halliwell-Phillipps http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FbHpAAAAMA...

    Und hier insgesamt ein Link zu den Fundstellen in Büchern (soweit diese in limted oder full view verfügbar sind) http://books.google.co.uk/books?lr=&cd=25&q=t...
    Insgesamt würde ich den Eintrag auch nicht löschen. Ich habe mir ein paar der Fundstellen durchgesehen und mir schien, dass das alles recht alte Fundstellen waren (bzw. die Belegen waren alt). Vielleicht ist die Redewendung auf Englisch wirklich zumindest "veraltet".
    #3VerfasserJenna2708 (36198) 26 Jan. 10, 17:42
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    Der OED fuehrt: http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50108370
    b. Prov. to reckon (count) without (before) one's host: to calculate one's bill or score without consulting one's host or landlord; to come to conclusions without taking into consideration some important circumstance of the case.

    c1489 CAXTON Blanchardyn lii. 202 It ys sayd in comyn that ‘who soeuer rekeneth wythoute his hoste, he rekeneth twys for ones’. 1533 MORE Debell. Salem Wks. 991/2 He fareth lo lyke a geste, that maketh hys rekening himselfe without hys hoste. 1548 HALL Chron., Hen. VI 131b, Thei reckened before their host, and so paied more then their shotte came to. 1597 MONTGOMERIE Cherrie & Slae 649 He that countis without his oist, Oft tymes he countis twyse. 1698 VANBRUGH 2nd Pt. Æsop iii, But here, alas! he found to's cost, He had reckon'd long without his host. 1824 SCOTT St. Ronan's xv, But hostess as she was herself,..she reckoned without her host in the present instance. 1877 [see COUNT v. 7]. 1886 SYMONDS Catholic React. II. 174 He [Bruno] reckoned strangely in this matter, without the murderous host into whose clutches he had fallen.

    1895: "Those who count upon the failure of the Democrats to unite at Charleston," says the prophet of smooth things, " reckon without their host ;" and" their ...
    1878: If reckon without host, it is their affair they be ultimately obliged to pay a good deal more than t. have reckoned on. But the fact that they are ...
    1854: Those who reckon that he will be easily beaten, reckon without their host.
    1864: They reckon without the host. Out men have escaped injury, end feel splendidly at the impunity with which they have received the shower of iron.
    NYtimes.com liefert 18 Treffer, allerdings in durchwegs aelteren Texten. Falls keine Muttersprachler widersprechen, hielte ich eine Kennzeichnung als [veraltet] angebracht.
    #4VerfasserMausling (384473) 26 Jan. 10, 20:40
    Good heavens, we certainly do still come across new things at LEO. But if neither the OED nor the NY Times have any examples more recent than the 19th century, surely we can safely call it obsolete.

    To me the reason is that, though 'reckon' is obviously etymologically related to 'rechnen,' 'reckon' in the sense of 'calculate' or 'add up a total' is itself largely obsolete, at least in AE. In BE especially (and in AE regional or colloquial speech) 'reckon' is still occasionally used in the sense of 'I reckon' meaning 'think,' 'imagine,' 'suppose,' etc. But in my experience it's a false friend in the sense of actual mathematics, except in a few surviving expressions like 'pay the reckoning.'

    However you mark it, I would support adding another alternative translation if you want modern English speakers to understand it.

    But is the German proverb really current? Maybe they're both rather old-fashioned? I wonder if the English proverb perhaps even came from the German one, or vice versa. If the English one was around as early as Caxton ...

    #5Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 27 Jan. 10, 04:31
    Kontext/ Beispiele
    "reckon verb (reckoned, reckoning) 1 (often reckon something up) to calculate, compute or estimate it • reckon up the cost. 2 to think of someone or something as belonging to a particular group; to class or place • reckon him among my friends. 3 to consider or think of someone or something in a specified way; to judge • be reckoned a world authority. 4 (usually reckon that ...) colloq to think or suppose ... • I reckon it's going to rain. 5 colloq to esteem or admire someone or something highly. someone or something to be reckoned with a person or thing of considerable importance or power that is not to be ignored.
    ETYMOLOGY: Anglo-Saxon (ge)recenian to recount or explain.

    reckon on someone or something to rely on or expect them or it • We reckoned on their support.

    reckon with or without someone or something to expect, or not expect trouble or difficulties from them or it.

    reckoning noun 1 a calculation; counting; b estimation; conjecture • By my reckoning, we must be about eight miles from the town. 2 an account or bill. 3 a settling of accounts, debts, grievances, etc. day of reckoning a time when one has to account for one's actions; a time of judgement.

    hm-us, really, "largely obsolete" in the sense of "calculate"?
    The two bold expressions above are really familiar to me, and I think are still used widely in the UK at least. (Especially: a force to be reckoned with)

    But is the German proverb really current?
    Yes, I'd say so, and Google hits for "die Rechnung ohne den Wirt gemacht" seem to back this up.
    http://search.babylon.com/?q=%22die+Rechnung+... , fwiw.
    #6Verfasserspinatwachtel27 Jan. 10, 08:10
    Yes, of course 'to be reckoned with' is perfectly normal in AE, and you're right that of all the fixed expressions surviving from this generally rather old-fashioned word, it may be the most common. But it's not the same sense as 'calculate,' is it? That's why Chambers lists it separately with its own definition.

    'The reckoning' as a figurative expression for the ultimate cost, final judgment, etc., is also still in use. And 'reckon up' is probably slightly more familiar than 'reckon' alone.

    Apart from those occasional exceptions, I still think most AE speakers would be unlikely to use the word in many of the senses given, but don't take my word for it; maybe someone else will comment.

    In any case, I think we all agree (so far) that none of us, AE or BE, would use the proverb.

    #7Verfasserhm -- us (236141) 27 Jan. 10, 17:14

    die Rechnung ohne den Wirt machen


    fail to reckon with sth. / to miscalculate / to reckon wrong(ly)

    Yup, veraltet/obsolet haette es wirklich verdient.

    Und die deutsche Seite ist wirklich gebraeuchlich genug, dass man eine modernere englische Uebersetzung anbieten sollte. Faellt jemandem ein aehnliches Sprichwort ein? Ich stimme CM2DD zu, dass die Kuekenzaehlerei eine andere Bedeutung hat. Koennte "to drop the ball" hier in einigen Bedeutungen passen?

    Als modernere Variante passt "to miscalculate" (#0) nicht schlecht, wenn auch nicht auf der Sprachebene. Eventuell auch "to get it wrong". Aber wenn es nichts auf der selben Sprachebene gibt, koennte man vielleicht an etwas wie "die Rechnung ohne den Wirt machen - fail to reckon with sth." denken. Allerdings hilft letzteres nicht bei Saetzen wie: Wenn er denkt, sein Chef liesse sich das gefallen, dann hat er die Rechnung ohne den Wirt gemacht! "To reckon wrong(ly)" passt vielleicht besser.
    #8VerfasserMausling (384473) 27 Jan. 10, 18:52
    Mausling, dein Beispiel wäre doch eher:
    ...he should think again
    ...he has another think coming?
    #9VerfasserSpinatwachtel (341764) 27 Jan. 10, 19:17
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