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  • Wrong entry

    therewith - damit adv.



    form. -


    This word is not actually in any of my dictionaries; it's in a couple of online American ones, but is not marked as formal there. Personal experience tells me that in BE it is either old or formal - is that not the case in AE? Can someone with the big OED comment?
    Author CM2DD (236324) 18 May 10, 16:30
    I support (keeping!) actually. Maybe it's regional. (I grew up in WI.) Maybe it should be marked AE.
    #1Authoropine (680211) 18 May 10, 18:46
    I have encountered it in US legal language (herewith - therewith)
    #2AuthorMorty09 (559154) 18 May 10, 18:56
    Context/ examples
    related discussion: damit: therewith vs. with that
    related discussion: damit kann ein Beitrag zur Abgrenzung gegenü...
    related discussion: Damit (Satzanfang)
    related discussion: "Therewith" Synonym für "Thus"?
    related discussion: Therewith
    related discussion: Konstruktionen mit "damit"

    and one that seems to have been answered incorrectly:

    related discussion: Beamtendeutsch - Damit wollen wir anknüpfen ...

    Webster's 3rd unabridged (1971):
    therewith - 1: with that {I have learned in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content —Phil 4:11[AV]} 2 [archaic] THEREUPON, FORTHWITH

    Random House unabridged (1966):
    therewith - 1. with that. 2. in addition to that. 3. following upon that; thereupon.

    Belatedly getting back to you, CM2DD ...

    I agree that it's virtually unused in normal modern English (except perhaps for legal writing, which is often somewhat archaic), and judging by the comments in previous threads, so do most other speakers of both AE and BE. Non-natives should surely just avoid it.

    I'm citing Random House only to say that I think it was behind the curve. W3, of around the same vintage, seems more reasonable to me in omitting most other senses or marking them archaic.

    I'm not at home with my OED or NOAD, sorry. me1, Norbert, and a few other people have NOAD; Mausling and several others have access to the OED online, by subscription or via a university library online. Maybe someone else will feel like looking.
    #3Authorhm -- us (236141) 18 May 10, 20:26
    #1 I'm not suggesting deleting it, but marking it as formal. Someone was trying to use it today in a letter to a friend; as I say, in BE that would be the wrong context.

    Just realised I didn't check my medium-sized Oxford Dictionary of English, and there it is:

    archaic or formal
    1. with or in the thing mentioned: documents lodged therewith
    2. soon or immediately after that; forthwith: therewith he rose
    #4AuthorCM2DD (236324) 18 May 10, 20:57
    #5. Agree! I misunderstood. Support!

    Can something be marked both archaic and formal? I was going to do that in the "Korrekturvorschlag" area, but I don't know how to mark it both.

    I glanced in a (physical) dictionary published around 2000, and it says just archaic.
    I agree though that it's formal too (legalese, etc.). It's all over the Internet. You've certainly shown it's both.

    A brutally honest opine moment: I was thinking it's used more in areas of the US where German immigrants have settled, since it's a very German sounding word, thus my comment in #1.

    Your story is interesting. It's a word not to be used "loosely". ;-)
    #5Authoropine (680211) 19 May 10, 09:58
    Context/ examples
    Beispiel: Ich hab ein Kopfschmerz. Damit, ich nap genehm.
    "Therewith" is not a phrase or word in english.

    You can break it down into separate words in English --

    "Da" means _there_ and "mit" means _with_. However, They are each entirely different words and they do not mean "damit" when put together, or used apart, in one phrase.

    Damit it has several different usages In english And in german.

    The closest translation to damit "therewith", would be "therefore"...
    #6AuthorPetunias (1316007) 16 Sep 21, 21:09

    "Therewith" is not a phrase or word in english(sic).

    Die Behauptung ist schlicht falsch.

    Wie oben schon gesagt, wird das Wort im englischen Recht auch heutzutage verwendet.

    Nur eins von vielen Beispielen:

     ...That so far as the Claim Form, or any Judgment, Order or other document to which anyone might have access pursuant to Rule 5.4 at any time does not comply with paragraphs (i) and (ii) above, the Claimant’s solicitors have leave to file with the Court, copies of such document adjusted so as to comply therewith;...

    RXH, KXP -v- Cleveland Police & others (anonymity order published under CPR 39.2(5) | Courts and Tribunals Judiciary


    Beispiel: Ich hab ein Kopfschmerz. Damit, ich nap genehm.

    Das klingt leider nach grammatisch falschem Kauderwelsch.

    #7Authorwienergriessler (925617)  16 Sep 21, 21:37
    #7 I decided to keep the legal ease out of my comment. I was Just about to edit my post to Specify that can be used as a compound word in legal documents. However, a straightforward answer in common / everyday/ spoken English was missing from this thread.
    #8AuthorPetunias (1316007) 16 Sep 21, 21:47

    I decided to keep the legal ease (sic!) out of my comment.

    Würdest Du bitte Dein Sprachprofil ausfüllen? Das macht es einfacher, die Beiträge der LEO-Nutzer einzuschätzen. Danke!

    #9Authorwienergriessler (925617) 16 Sep 21, 21:50

    Nur zur Sicherheit:

    Petunias meinte 'legalese'.

    Dictionary: legalese

    #10Authorpenguin (236245) 17 Sep 21, 10:27

    Legal ease klingt aber einfach gut - die Leichtigkeit des juristischen Daseins :-)

    #11Authorwienergriessler (925617) 17 Sep 21, 10:29

    ja, sicher, zumal Rechtsverdreher sich meist eben nicht einfacher Sprache befleißigen

    #12Authorpenguin (236245) 17 Sep 21, 10:31

    **Nur zur Sicherheit: Petunias meinte 'legalese'.**

    #13AuthorPetunias (1316007) 17 Sep 21, 17:49

    re ##6,7 : ... Ich hab ein Kopfschmerz. Damit, ich nap genehm. -- was ist nun damit gemeint, insbesondere dem zweiten Satz ? Der erste wäre korrekt "Ich habe Kopfschmerzen" ...

    #14Authorno me bré (700807)  17 Sep 21, 18:17

    #14: Ich rate - "Ich habe Kopfschmerzen, deshalb habe ich ein bisschen geschlafen."

    Eine Wort-für-Wort-Übersetzung (im wahrsten Sinne des Wortes!) von "I have a headache, therefore I took a nap.", die auf Deutsch natürlich überhaupt nicht funktioniert.

    Ich versuche noch, zu verstehen, ob #6 Trolling, ein Satireversuch oder wirklich ernstgemeint ist.

    Damit it has several different usages In english And in german.

    Der Satz ist nicht nur sprachlich schief, sondern auch inhaltlich - denn "damit" gibt es nicht im Englischen. Es stimmt, dass "damit" im Deutschen mehrere Verwendungsformen hat.

    The closest translation to damit "therewith", would be "therefore"...

    Und das stimmt, würde ich behaupten, niemals.

    #15AuthorKübelchen (837721) 17 Sep 21, 20:39

    Zur Vervollständigung noch eine Verwendung des Wortes im nichtjuristischen Kontext (P.G. Wodehouse ist immer die richtige Anlaufstelle für exotische Formulierungen):

     I didn't envy them that vol-au-vent of yours, Ellen, good as it smelt. Better a dinner of 'erbs where love is than a stalled ox and 'atred therewith," said Parker, helping himself to a walnut.

    The Little Warrior by P. G. Wodehouse: Chapter 2 (

    #16Authorwienergriessler (925617) 18 Sep 21, 08:20
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